So the Marathon will be this Sunday 6th, it will start near yonge and sheppard but wait..the TTC who claim to be the better way, will not be running until hours after the Marathon has already started, meaning we will fail to show tourists that we have a viable public transportation, instead showing them Grid Lock at its best and nothing but congestion of taxi's making pollution to get people to the starting line.

EPIC FAIL..
- Toronto Unions never fail to impress at the correct times..
Pope visit - garage strike
summer tourism - garbage strike..
when is Toronto - going to act like a city of value and show it?

here is the Typical - short sighted answer:
But TTC spokesperson Brad Ross told 680News there hasn't been any serious discussion about it.

"There are costs involved. While there are a lot of people who tend to race, typically our ridership on a Sunday morning for the subway would be very low, and I think it would just be cost prohibitive," said Ross.

Hey it could be worse. They could have followed the path of our town council and canceled the event outright.

Yep we had an annual massive fireworks display that brought 30000+ people to our small community. After having to arrest 9 people last year, all on minor drunk charges, the Mounties wanted the town to pay to have a SWAT team on standby.:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: Council thought it would be a great idea to cancel the event, :ptptptptp:ptptptptp:ptptptptp:ptptptptp:ptptptptp :ptptptptp:ptptptptp:ptptptptp:ptptptptp:ptptptptp :ptptptptp rather than telling the Mounties that there is no serious problem and shove your SWAT team ....

Sorry to hijack for a minor rant and I do agree. Sometimes you need to pay a bit of overtime and have the mass transit up and running for a major event. Seriously though, don't ever let the Police try to convince you they need to have Storm Troopers in place.:D

Your issue is another way the union thought hmm.. double over time and charge for readiness in case someone spills a drink - they will swarm him with box of tissues.

And this is a union issue how?

Well the TTC specifically isn't well-known for its stellar customer service. There's some moves to change that, but culture-change like this is an uphill batter.

And this is a union issue how?

Well the TTC specifically isn't well-known for its stellar customer service. There's some moves to change that, but culture-change like this is an uphill batter.

It's in the union contract that they don't have to offer good customer service.

Hey it could be worse. They could have followed the path of our town council and canceled the event outright.Yep we had an annual massive fireworks display that brought 30000+ people to our small community. After having to arrest 9 people last year, all on minor drunk charges,
Wow! A well controlled crowd, i'm impressed.

Toronto is so not world class, can't even hold a event like this properly. Transportation system is falling way behind and like mentioned in previous posts, unions aren't helping. Went to Washington DC for a week a while back and LOVED, yes I'm mean loved the Metro subway system there. Left the car at the hotel for most of that week.
Don't get me started on the waterfront not to be.

Toronto is so not world class, can't even hold a event like this properly. Transportation system is falling way behind and like mentioned in previous posts, unions aren't helping. Went to Washington DC for a week a while back and LOVED, yes I'm mean loved the Metro subway system there. Left the car at the hotel for most of that week.
Don't get me started on the waterfront not to be.

Exactly. And yet it was voted for streetcars instead of subways. :rolleyes:

Street cars are so old way, put it all underground. New York no street cars. Hmmm.

Exactly. And yet it was voted for streetcars instead of subways. :rolleyes:

Street cars are so old way, put it all underground. New York no street cars. Hmmm.

LRT is not a streetcar.

And in the areas where LRT was proposed, a subway is not justified because the density doesn't work.

That said, there ARE areas in Toronto where a subway does make a lot of sense, but those areas were not discussed.

LRT is not a streetcar.

And in the areas where LRT was proposed, a subway is not justified because the density doesn't work.

Where an LRT is proposed, a bus will do.

Where an LRT is proposed, a bus will do.

Currently, there are buses on those routes. And they are overcrowded and insufficient for the usage.

Well the TTC specifically isn't well-known for its stellar customer service. There's some moves to change that, but culture-change like this is an uphill batter.

Wouldn't the decision not to run vehicles be a management decision?

Wouldn't the decision not to run vehicles be a management decision?

I have no idea.

Without a lot more information about exactly how things go at the TTC, I wouldn't characterize the TTC's culture a union issue so much as a overall organizational issue.

I have no idea.

Without a lot more information about exactly how things go at the TTC, I wouldn't characterize the TTC's culture a union issue so much as a overall organizational issue.

Nor do I but I assume scheduling is a management decision.

It was the OP's assertion that it is a union decision, which I doubt.

It's in the union contract that they don't have to offer good customer service.

Can you provide a link confirming this?

Currently, there are buses on those routes. And they are overcrowded and insufficient for the usage.

Add more buses.

Add more buses.

In Calgary it would take ten buses and drivers to accomplish what a single 3 car c-train does. Since the buses would be competing with and contributing to traffic, trip time would be at least 3 to 10 times longer depending on time of day.

In Calgary it would take ten buses and drivers to accomplish what a single 3 car c-train does. Since the buses would be competing with and contributing to traffic, trip time would be at least 3 to 10 times longer depending on time of day.

But any LRT which would replace a lane of traffic at any point is a non-starter.

I support only subways, and if they need to be built slowly, so be it.

But any LRT which would replace a lane of traffic at any point is a non-starter.

Most (if not all--I haven't checked km by km) of the LRT plans proposed involve widening the roadway to accommodate a dedicated transit lane while preserving the existing lanes of traffic.

Most (if not all--I haven't checked km by km) of the LRT plans proposed involve widening the roadway to accommodate a dedicated transit lane while preserving the existing lanes of traffic.

Not all. Some of it merely states that the current road is wide enough to accommodate the LRT lane.

LRT is not a streetcar.

And in the areas where LRT was proposed, a subway is not justified because the density doesn't work.

That said, there ARE areas in Toronto where a subway does make a lot of sense, but those areas were not discussed.

SO what is a LRT to me a fancy name for street car.

And I will add that Montreal used to have street cars and got rid of them. I don't car what you say LRT = Street Car period its on tracks and in a lane of traffic. You can get everywhere with Montreal subway system. Other countries built subway systems in a small amount of time. Above ground public transportation is old school thinking.

SO what is a LRT to me a fancy name for street car.

I unknowingly rode on one in Minneapolis thinking it was a subway that was above-ground. (Much like the Toronto subway is aboveground at Davisville.) Multiple cars is one big difference.

But here's a picture of one.
http://t4america.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/rail6_high.jpg

And I will add that Montreal used to have street cars and got rid of them. I don't car what you say LRT = Street Car period its on tracks and in a lane of traffic. You can get everywhere with Montreal subway system. Other countries built subway systems in a small amount of time. Above ground public transportation is old school thinking.

In the downtown core, yes, subways make sense since the density justifies them.

But even Paris is building LRT to reach the suburbs.

I do agree with you that the amount of time that Toronto takes to build one of these things is ridiculous.

Bring on the LRTs with dedicated right of way, I say. Let's get it going already. It's not old school thinking at all. No money in the coffers for subways anyway - barely enough for LRTs.

The livelihood of Toronto depends greatly on it getting its transit act together over the next several years. Enough of the dithering and messing around - although it's clear Rob Ford will be campaigning on stopping LRTs and restarting the Sheppard extension. Sure hope he doesn't get another chance to squander yet more public money via project cancellation penalties.

And this is a union issue how?


It's not. They just like to blame the union because they have alot of old myths and misconceptions about unions.

These are all problems of mismanagement. The Mounties example is an example of overkill - a certain thing happens and to make sure it never happens again they apply a solution bigger than what's needed or they provide a solution not only to the problem but everything else around the problem. The TTC problem is either a problem of cost cutting (not wanting to pay the money) or no foresight to see that there is a need for transit.

I unknowingly rode on one in Minneapolis thinking it was a subway that was above-ground. (Much like the Toronto subway is aboveground at Davisville.) Multiple cars is one big difference.

Where I come from, we call this a train.

Where I come from, we call this a train.

'Train' is a much more accurate synonym for LRT.

It's a light train. ;)

SO what is a LRT to me a fancy name for street car.

Yeah it's a streetcar or train. Here's Ottawa's:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Otrain.jpg

File:Otrain.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Otrain.jpg)

Where I come from, we call this a train.

Hence the name: Light Rail Transit.

FWIW Track construction and cars are quite a bit cheaper going diesel. I seem to recall similar diesel cars being 1/5th the price of their electric counterparts. Obviously savings are offset by fuel costs over the life of the unit.

Bring on the LRTs with dedicated right of way, I say. Let's get it going already. It's not old school thinking at all. No money in the coffers for subways anyway - barely enough for LRTs.

The livelihood of Toronto depends greatly on it getting its transit act together over the next several years. Enough of the dithering and messing around - although it's clear Rob Ford will be campaigning on stopping LRTs and restarting the Sheppard extension. Sure hope he doesn't get another chance to squander yet more public money via project cancellation penalties.

Yes, yes! Bring on the matter transmitter! No sense in living in the past with subways and buses.

Yeah the Ottawa one is currently a small start to our LRT and is currently Diesel. They have plans to expand it, but they keep changing their mind and delaying it. Hopefully our current Mayor will get the expansion done, already. The expanded one I believe is supposed to be electric.

Of course Mayors and city councillors don't have to pack into the buses that my mom likes to call sardine cans.

Yes, yes! Bring on the matter transmitter! No sense in living in the past with subways and buses.

By the time any of this passes through all the political machinations and actually gets built and is ready to use, we might just have that matter transmission thing going.... :D

Of course Mayors and city councillors don't have to pack into the buses that my mom likes to call sardine cans.

Since I started following this closely, I can think of a few city councillors in Toronto who regularly take transit.

But our Mayor is definitely not one of them.

Yes, yes! Bring on the matter transmitter! No sense in living in the past with subways and buses.

I'm all for matter transmitters. Bring those on too!

I've got nothing against subways. Alas, no money in the coffers. No political will to commit to it either, despite public grumbling. And so much for Rob Ford's vaunted claim that the private sector will rush in to save the day. Bit of a joke, that.

Busses? Old school thinking. They have to share the road with cars, trucks, motorbikes, etc. Dedicated right of way moves more people and moves 'em faster in any given hour. Only way busses work is if you give 'em a dedicated right of way. You can do that, sure.

Busses or LRTs, it's all the same to me - just as long as they have their own right of way.

Cars move faster with their own right of way. I have never driven faster down Queen or College Streets during the day than during the last TTC strike.

Precisely. The very reason why cars sharing with busses and streetcars is terribly retrograde... pointless, even.

Since I started following this closely, I can think of a few city councillors in Toronto who regularly take transit.

But our Mayor is definitely not one of them.

I was talking about Ottawa's LRT. But it seems to be in the same situation as yours. We have councillors that can't agree on anything and our old mayor who couldn't get anything started.

Luckily we got a new mayor and, hopfully, he'll push it through with a few minor adjustments to the plan.

Since I started following this closely, I can think of a few city councillors in Toronto who regularly take transit.

Why would they? They value their time and have enough money to drive comfortably and park near work.

Even the director of the TTC doesn't take transit and his office is directly above the Davisville subway station.

Busses? Old school thinking. They have to share the road with cars, trucks, motorbikes, etc. Dedicated right of way moves more people and moves 'em faster in any given hour. Only way busses work is if you give 'em a dedicated right of way. You can do that, sure.


Yeah, in Ottawa we have the bus thing, we call it a Transitway - which is a dedicated two-way route, except for downtown which is a dedicated lane downtown. The problem now is that downtown Ottawa's dedicated lane is a line full of buses from one end of downtown to the other. We really need an underground LRT downtown.

At first they didn't want to pay for it because they thought it was expensive and they
thought they could find a solution above ground. But above ground is deadlock because everyone is trying to either get to Gatineau across the bridge or to Ottawa and downtown is the center of this cross-traffic. Finally they decided on a underground tunnel through downtown which is the smartest idea.

Of course some councillors still don't agree with it and some councillors of course want the LRT to start in their area, but they can't all get it at the same time. Some want East to West, others want it down South. Just start implementing the damn thing already or it will neverr get started.

Why would they? They value their time and have enough money to drive comfortably and park near work.

Well, as I understand it, Pam McConnell for one has vision problems that prevent her from driving.

Though for my own part, I rather like taking the TTC since I can read while travelling. Depending on where I'm going, the time involved is often about the same as driving, and so it makes for better multi-tasking.

You and many others feel the same way, Sonal - despite real issues with the TTC and how it's run. Less stressful, not having to drive. Read a book, surf your phone, cop some 'z's.

Yeah, in Ottawa we have the bus thing, we call it a Transitway - which is a dedicated two-way route, except for downtown which is a dedicated lane downtown. The problem now is that downtown Ottawa's dedicated lane is a line full of buses from one end of downtown to the other. We really need an underground LRT downtown.


^^^Prime example why Toronto needs to go underground. The LRT would serve the burbs a lot better that the city. There's a little more space for all vehicles in the burbs, but even there, the planners are screwing up and not thinking about the future.

Hate to say it, but southern Ontario needs a centralized transit authority perhaps run by the province. I'm not seeing it working out the way it is now.

You and many others feel the same way, Sonal - despite real issues with the TTC and how it's run. Less stressful, not having to drive. Read a book, surf your phone, cop some 'z's.

And on that note, WiFi in the subway would be fantastic. I'd even get a smart phone. Then I could post here using Tapatalk while on the subway. :)

I absolutely hated taking the TTC when I lived in the inner suburbs and the trip was up to 4x as long as driving. But then I moved.

If I worked downtown I'd probably get rid of my car. Heck, if the full Transit City plan existed today, I wouldn't need a car.

^^^Prime example why Toronto needs to go underground. The LRT would serve the burbs a lot better that the city. There's a little more space for all vehicles in the burbs, but even there, the planners are screwing up and not thinking about the future.

Hate to say it, but southern Ontario needs a centralized transit authority perhaps run by the province. I'm not seeing it working out the way it is now.

An interesting trend in condo building, in the Toronto core at least, is shrinking the number of assigned parking lots per built unit. The trend seems to be real gathering momentum. Cars as a private mode of transportation are hardly going away but in a city that’s well served by a variety of mass transit options, and amidst rising fuel costs with no realistic/practical alternate energy options, mass transit is here to stay. Which is another reason that LRTs with dedicated right of way are going to be something commuters in the GTA will simply have to grow accustomed to.

That said, public transit in the GTA has to get better, much better. But it’s austerity time; the Feds don’t seem to be willing to commit much money to it for any of Canada’s major cities, and Ontario’s government isn’t too terribly keen to invest in any long-term strategies (beyond the money already ear-marked for the LRT expansion… moerover, federal power is shifting westward as well - the writing's on the wall.

So it looks like Toronto will have to fend for itself. Which is, perhaps, why the issue of tolls keeps coming back. Or do they call them revenue tools these days?

Why can't transit riders simply pay for the sytem. That would solve everything. But n-o--o-o-o-o. They want others to pay for their ride, because they don;t like to pay what it costs.

Why can't transit riders simply pay for the sytem. That would solve everything. But n-o--o-o-o-o. They want others to pay for their ride, because they don;t like to pay what it costs.

Well on the Yonge line, they do. But on Sheppard they don't. So under that ideology, LRT makes a lot more sense. ;)

Still, transit has a number of economic benefits to the city overall including development fees (for the many condo towers that cluster around transit hubs), more money in land transfer tax (for all those condo sales) and higher property taxes (raised assessed values for places near transit).

Why won't car drivers pay for their roads? That would solve everything. But nooooooooooo. They want others to pay for their ride, blah blah.

Jumping jetpacks, MF! You are one square peg.

Why won't car drivers pay for their roads? That would solve everything. But nooooooooooo. They want others to pay for their ride, blah blah.

Jumping jetpacks, MF! You are one square peg.

He's just being curmudgeonly on principle now. ;)

Yeah, I know. It's an instinctive thing.

Why won't car drivers pay for their roads? .

They do...every time they buy a litre of gas or diesel. Where do you think those gas taxes are supposed to go?

Problem is, no surprise, with the provincial governments placing them into the general revenue stream.


That said, public transit in the GTA has to get better, much better. But it’s austerity time; the Feds don’t seem to be willing to commit much money to it for any of Canada’s major cities, and Ontario’s government isn’t too terribly keen to invest in any long-term strategies (beyond the money already ear-marked for the LRT expansion… moerover, federal power is shifting westward as well - the writing's on the wall. .

It's always been about money and always will be. That's why there's nothing done in the last 35 years. Always the same whining...no money, no money. Politicians don't like transportation issues because it costs too much and does not give them much of a return in votes. They may pave their section of some backroad in their riding to buy votes and that's about it.

Why won't car drivers pay for their roads? That would solve everything. But nooooooooooo. They want others to pay for their ride, blah blah.

Jumping jetpacks, MF! You are one square peg.

They can and they should. The gas tax kps mentioned is a large part of that.

As should the riders of the transit systems.

You nailed it, bruddah. Yes, governments are addicted to gas taxes and do indeed divert that money into the general revenue stream for all manner of things. Same with booze taxes. It's just a grab with no accountability.

If driver's gas purchases aren't covering the cost of repairing roads and planning for future transportation needs, then new ways of raising money have to be considered. Which, come to think of it, comes off as political suicide.

They do...every time they buy a litre of gas or diesel. Where do you think those gas taxes are supposed to go?

Problem is, no surprise, with the provincial governments placing them into the general revenue stream...


'Tis very true indeed.

Here in Quebec we even pay a "public transportion tax" (when we pay our vehicle registration) for the "privilege" of driving a car/vehicle regardless of whether or not it is a necessity to go work etc... it doesn't matter where you live i.e., how remote from public transit you are, if you drive a vehicle you pay the tax.

If driver's gas purchases aren't covering the cost of repairing roads and planning for future transportation needs, then new ways of raising money have to be considered. Which, come to think of it, comes off as political suicide.

LA managed to pull it off. Decided lack of transit was a problem, introduced a new sales tax to pay for transit, got people to vote for it, and then started 12 transit lines paid for by said tax.... all within 4 years I think it was?

LA managed to pull it off. Decided lack of transit was a problem, introduced a new sales tax to pay for transit, got people to vote for it, and then started 12 transit lines paid for by said tax.... all within 4 years I think it was?

And that is effectively done in Quebec with the aforementioned public transportation tax but as kps mentioned, here it is diverted into general revenues and is in fact not necessarily used for the stated/intended purposes...

Big part of the problem for sure. Pols have a hard time keeping their hands out of the cookie jar.

And that is effectively done in Quebec with the aforementioned public transportation tax but as kps mentioned, here it is diverted into general revenues and is in fact not necessarily used for the stated/intended purposes...

LA did actually use their transit tax to pay for transit, so future such initiative there will likely come with a high level of trust.

Given the history in Canada, I'm not sure that people would have the same trust, though some polls in Toronto show that a majority are willing to pay some kind of an extra tax if it goes directly to funding transit.

It's probably a smart thing for Toronto to do as a long-term strategy. Toronto can't expect that our transit system won't need capital investing in the future, and we can't rely on begging dollars from the Fed and the Province.

Yup and commercial vehicles have, for years now, paid highway user taxes all based of registered Gross Vehicle Weight. More weight you haul, more you pay...supposedly to repair all that damage you cause to those inferior roads.

Let's face it. Public transit users simply don't want to pay what the service is worth to them.

Let's face it. Public transit users simply don't want to pay what the service is worth to them.

Even all these people?
74% of GTA residents support 0.5% sales tax for transit: poll - Toronto - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2012/04/18/gta-regional-sales-tax-toronto657.html)

Even all these people?
74% of GTA residents support 0.5% sales tax for transit: poll - Toronto - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2012/04/18/gta-regional-sales-tax-toronto657.html)

Yes. Out of all of those people many believe that someone else will be paying for the transit, not them. Many of the others want the 26% of people who don't support it to make it cheaper for them.

Yes. Out of all of those people many believe that someone else will be paying for the transit, not them. Many of the others want the 26% of people who don't support it to make it cheaper for them.

If they are saying they agree to a sales tax in their own municipality to pay for transit, how does that not affect them?

There's also the people, like myself, who would like to pay for transit for other people to use. (As much as I like the TTC, I drive most of the time, and walk 2nd most.)

Let's face it. People who fly don't want to pay the full cost of supporting all that expensive airport infrastructure. Drivers don't want to pay any more than they do now, even though the county needs a slew of new bridges, tunnels and highways (and a deadly highway in Northern Alberta which needs to be twinned like, yesterday)... nor do pedestrians want to pay for sidewalk repairs, much less cough up for brand new ones. No one wants to pay the full nickel for anything.

But that stance, however mature, solves precisely zilch. In the meantime we all have to get along in this crazy patchwork of humanity we call civilization. And we have to be able to move around without killing one another.

Let's face it. People who fly don't want to pay the full cost of supporting all that expensive airport infrastructure.


They do.

No. They don't. They couldn't possibly. All the buried costs. No way, dude. But it does bring to mind the difficulty of determining the full costs of all these different transportation methods and all that they require.... regulatory mechanisms, health and safety equipment, spot inspections of airframes and other gear, the sheer land value of international airports gobbling up huge chunks of real estate in major urban centres, the costs of all the security in the airportt, those insanely expensive (and still problematic) baggage handling installations, all that emergency rescue equipment and their crews which spring into action when a plane goes off the runway.

Whereas most fliers are paying for crazy-expensive aviation gas and your usual assortment of flight and airport taxes which, once collected, are diverted away from helping to pay for air travel in this country.

Let's face it. Public transit users simply don't want to pay what the service is worth to them.

LRT is the wrong system. We should have subways.
The more right of ways there are, more congestion more traffic more smog. So how is LRT better?
Yes riders should foot the bill, I drive because I have too I have no choice I pay too much as it is to drive. So I think all these city folk should pay for transit if they need it


One thing we left out, TTC said they do not want to incure cost for an evet that brings $20 M to TO - stupid is one word comes to mind. After the event tourists will go home and spread the word of our lack of transit during the event.

Again, no money for subways. Enough for LRT though - just barely, I'll bet. You know how costs balloon with this stuff.

Suggest a plan by which we could practically build the requisite network of subways. I'm all ears.