Omar Khadr transfer request in Ottawa's hands (http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/04/18/pol-omar-khadr-transfer-request.html)

Omar Khadr is anxious to return to Canada and "become a contributing member of our society," his Toronto lawyer says, as the federal government confirmed today the Canadian Guantanamo Bay prisoner's fate is now in its hands in the form of a transfer application.

Public Safety Minister Vic Toew's office said it has received a completed application from Khadr to transfer to Canada from the U.S. military detention centre in Cuba, and a decision will be made "in accordance with Canadian law."

(CBC (http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/04/18/pol-omar-khadr-transfer-request.html))

Welcome back Khadr!:D

Send him back! I mean keep him out of this country. Just in case anyone was thinking I meant sending him back here. Send him back to where he was caught.

Really, why would anyone be thrilled to have him back?

Terrorists don't get second chances. Let him rot in Gitmo.

Send him back! I mean keep him out of this country. Just in case anyone was thinking I meant sending him back here. Send him back to where he was caught.

As the Chinese do.. sent the cost of the bullet to his terrorist family and be done with him already.. he is causing and costing too much.

Sigh. So the hard-hearted right wingers haven't softened their positions since the last times we covered this topic (1 (http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/77590-never-leave-canada.html)) (2 (http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/51893-you-khadr-kidding.html))

He's a man now, raised behind bars in Guantánamo Prison by the U.S. military. But never forget, he was a child when he allegedly killed a U.S. soldier (about which there is considerable doubt).

I'm appalled at what some people consider justice here.

I'm satisfied that he killed the soldier. He may well come here. I wouldn't protest it, but I have no reason to be pleased about it either.

Sigh. So the hard-hearted right wingers haven't softened their positions since the last times we covered this topic (1 (http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/77590-never-leave-canada.html)) (2 (http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/51893-you-khadr-kidding.html))

He's a man now, raised behind bars in Guantánamo Prison by the U.S. military. But never forget, he was a child when he allegedly killed a U.S. soldier (about which there is considerable doubt).

I'm appalled at what some people consider justice here.

all the males in his family are terrorists. Stop being so compassionate for the guy seriously.
I would say leave him there but the A+ healthcare and treatment [ 5 meals a day and he is in Cuba is unfair] - they should send him on unmanned plane ride - be the end of him.

all the males in his family are terrorists. Stop being so compassionate for the guy seriously.

Guilt by association plus blaming the victim - a child.

I would say leave him there but the A+ healthcare and treatment [ 5 meals a day and he is in Cuba is unfair]

Oh, I'm sure Guantánamo was pretty much like a Sandals resort for him. Temps in the high-30s, no air conditioning, lovely view of the beach...

Guilt by association plus blaming the victim - a child.

Victim? he is a victim? :lmao: Please. :rolleyes:

Guilt by association plus blaming the victim - a child.



Oh, I'm sure Guantánamo was pretty much like a Sandals resort for him. Temps in the high-30s, no air conditioning, lovely view of the beach...

it was 20/20 and other programs. they treat them better than their own citizens of US. :-(
they get sports and other life programs to make them comfortable..
so maybe they should ship them to a US prison.. then we are talking.. real care program. [ where men are men and boys are scared.]

I believe that it's fairly easy to make anyone look like a victim of something as a last ditch-excuse to fly in the face of common sense. He may have no place to go but here, but I'd much rather see someone else on the immigration roster.

I'm appalled at what some people consider justice here.

they heard he had a fair trial on talk radio, so it must be true.

I have tried and tried to be as objective about this as I can. Then I remember what I was taught about the use of deadly force and when I was 15, (and by then an instructor in the Scout movement for gun safety) I knew full well I could drop a deer in its tracks with the pull of a trigger of a .30-.30. Or drop a duck from the sky with a shotgun shell. And at 15 years of age and even younger, I did just that many, many times, fully understanding that I was about to take a life when I sighted down that barrel. Anyone who at that same age tosses a grenade that takes a life does so with the complete knowledge and intent that it would result in death. That personal experience leaves me with no sympathy for this guy whatsoever. Anyone who plays the child card has never been there themselves. Just imagine what this guy's parents or close relatives or army comrades filled his head with, while he, like me knew full well the consequences of his actions at that age. Child soldier be damned.

Remember Khadr is coming back to do time in prison. The Excited States aren't all that excited about retaining Khadr in their midsts.

They want done with him and seem some here don't want to help out our southern neighbour, my my!

My problem with this is that he left Canada to fight alongside the Taliban committing treason. His passport should have been revoked and his citizenship reversed.

Anyone who at that same age tosses a grenade that takes a life does so with the complete knowledge and intent that it would result in death. That personal experience leaves me with no sympathy for this guy whatsoever.

I understand where you're coming from - but as we discussed (ad nauseum) in the other threads, (a) legally, Khadr was a child soldier and should have been afforded certain protections and treatment, and (b) from his documented wounds, there is some doubt that he would have been physically capable of throwing the grenade - there was no eyewitness saying HE did it.

My problem with this is that he left Canada to fight alongside the Taliban committing treason. His passport should have been revoked and his citizenship reversed.

+1
Also if we except the nut job back, then what about all the other Canadians on death row throughout USA, can't pick and choose - send them all back home or keep them all
There must be a line drawn.
Let him pay his crimes over there.

+1
Also if we except the nut job back, then what about all the other Canadians on death row throughout USA, can't pick and choose - send them all back home or keep them all
There must be a line drawn.
Let him pay his crimes over there.

Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
Friedrich Nietzsche

+1
Also if we except the nut job back, then what about all the other Canadians on death row throughout USA, can't pick and choose - send them all back home or keep them all
There must be a line drawn.
Let him pay his crimes over there.

There is only one Canadian on death row in the US is my understanding. Very different circumstances from Khadr, too.

Only Canadian on death row could lose clemency bid before it begins - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/only-canadian-on-death-row-could-lose-clemency-bid-before-it-begins/article2394153/)

it really is amazing that some people try so hard to have their view of the world fit some cartoonish black & white version they hope it actually is.

"Omar Khadr was a "terrorist" who killed someone" (although they leave out allegedly). of course they also forget to mention that "someone" was part of an invading force that had surrounded him and was actively trying to harm him (and in fact DID grievously harm him).

Doesn't really fit the description of "terrorism" under any kind of critical scrutiny.

1. If I am surrounded by invading troops and all around me are being killed, I will fight back. The ultimate sovereinty is soverienty of self. If you give that up, you give up all. If he actualy did anything, that is what he is being charged for.

2. By Geneva convention standards and world court standards, he was a child soldier and in any other juristiction he would have been back here long ago. The American set up has dubious legitimacy. This is a country that cries foul but will not submit to the world court because their own leaders might be charged. This is also a military court with dubious practices. I have little faith in current American justice and slim to 0 faith in their military court system.

3. It would appear that the Goverment of Canada really doesn't like his family, and from what I read with fairly good reason, but you don't tar the kid with the father's brush.

4. The crimes are alledged, not proven.

Sorry, I can't support the vitriol, especially when the charging party is making up the rules as they go along. I the long run, this is far more dangerous than anything Kahder has done.

1. If I am surrounded by invading troops and all around me are being killed, I will fight back. The ultimate sovereinty is soverienty of self. If you give that up, you give up all. If he actualy did anything, that is what he is being charged for.

2. By Geneva convention standards and world court standards, he was a child soldier and in any other juristiction he would have been back here long ago. The American set up has dubious legitimacy. This is a country that cries foul but will not submit to the world court because their own leaders might be charged. This is also a military court with dubious practices. I have little faith in current American justice and slim to 0 faith in their military court system.

3. It would appear that the Goverment of Canada really doesn't like his family, and from what I read with fairly good reason, but you don't tar the kid with the father's brush.

4. The crimes are alledged, not proven.

Sorry, I can't support the vitriol, especially when the charging party is making up the rules as they go along. I the long run, this is far more dangerous than anything Kahder has done.

The apple never falls far from the tree.

The apple never falls far from the tree.

Really?

What a great way to streamline our justice system! Offspring of convicted (or even accused but never convicted) felons no longer require anything more that a summary trial before sentencing.

The apple never falls far from the tree.

I grew up small town. Yup, there is some truth to that as I have been able to watch over a few generations and seen traits either inherited or family tradition passed on. There is also to falsity as even in families where traits, desireable and otherwise were consistently passed on, there is usually at least one person different from the rest.

The real falsity here is we are in a country that believes in both guilty until proven innocent and that justice delayed is justice denied. You cannot make the quote above and still support the justice system as we know it. He was 15 when all this happened. He is in his twenties now. He has pretty much already done the time without ever being convicted of the crime. How do you spell Gulag (probably not like this as I can't spell for beans and I am on an iPad).

Obviously there are some people who believe in the application of the law and others that don't. The really sad thing about Khadr is that he has rotted away over a decade of his life whereas if a policy like children's aid had been applied there would have been a chance that the young man could have led a better life. I think it's almost pointless debating the fearful crowd on this issue. The propagandists have done a good job gaining support for programs like torture, renditioning, etc.

Lichen,

2. By Geneva convention standards and world court standards, he was a child soldier and in any other juristiction he would have been back here long ago

Interesting. I did not know this. Before I sway my thoughts though, this would be akin to a child being tried as an adult. Wasn't this kid 15? If his parents forced him to go that is one thing, if we wanted to go that's another. I know the right wing is saying he was a kid and would have been subject to parental pressure without it being said but I don't always buy that. It all depends on the circumstance.

The other side to this is that perhaps he should have been returned, tried with treason, murder and if found guilty put him in jail and eventually give him a one way ticket out of Canada when his time has been served.

The Canadian Supreme Court has ruled that the Canadian government has violated Omar Khadr's Charter rights in not seeking his repatriation.

That's enough for me. The Charter applies to all our citizens, not just the ones we like.

The Canadian Supreme Court has ruled that the Canadian government has violated Omar Khadr's Charter rights in not seeking his repatriation.

That's enough for me. The Charter applies to all our citizens, not just the ones we like.

Very true, Sonal. While I don't advocate violence, I still see him as a child soldier. Paix, mon amie.

The Canadian Supreme Court has ruled that the Canadian government has violated Omar Khadr's Charter rights in not seeking his repatriation.

That's enough for me. The Charter applies to all our citizens, not just the ones we like.

Exactly, so if the guy needs to come to Canada, let it happen. But that's no reason to be delighted to have him here.

Exactly, so if the guy needs to come to Canada, let it happen. But that's no reason to be delighted to have him here.

I can accept delight in the Government upholding the Charter. ;)

If he still has a sentence to serve out, let him serve it here in Canada. Not in Gitmo.

I can accept delight in the Government upholding the Charter. ;)

Definitely. But I have no truck with people welcoming him here like some sort of folk hero.

I think what most are missing is that the only evidence that Omar killed anyone was obtained under torture.

The initial report indicated that he did not and probably could not have thrown the grenade and was changed under extreme pressure from those higher up in the command chain. This of course was never mentioned during his "trial"

For the moment at least Khadr is a Canadian Citizen and should be treated as such.

Khadr does also enjoy Egyptian citizenship. If King Harpo really believes that Khadr is as evil as he has been portrayed, then obvious course of action is to bring him back to Canada, let him serve out his sentence as originally agreed. Then if there is evidence that he violated the citizenship process, have a trial to revoke it. None of this, "We have evidence but cannot show it because it's classified" nonsense. If the evidence is there present it. Give Khadr a chance to repudiate it and let an unbiased judge decide his fate.

As an aside, I really do not like dual citizenship. Canada's citizenship process gives immigrants ample time to learn Canadian ways and to decide whether or not they want to become Canadian. Should they wish to retain their former citizenship, they can still live and work here indefinitely as Permanent Residents. Dual citizenship can put one in a position of split loyalty where what is required under one flag is banned under another. Under no circumstances should a citizen of another nation be allowed to run for Parliament or any of the Provincial Legislatures without first revoking that foreign citizenship.

exactly, so if the guy needs to come to canada, let it happen. But that's no reason to be delighted to have him here.

i can accept delight in the government upholding the charter. ;)

if he still has a sentence to serve out, let him serve it here in canada. Not in gitmo.

+1

Very true, Sonal. While I don't advocate violence, I still see him as a child soldier. Paix, mon amie.

I'm inclined to see it the same way, and there's certainly some question over exactly what happened in the midst of the firefight. But in this particular matter, that's not the most relevant issue.

The Canadian Government owes it to its citizens to uphold their Charter rights. They have not done so. Bring him back to Canada.... if there are still questions about his actions in Afghanistan, they can be dealt with here under Canadian law and supervision.

I'm inclined to see it the same way, and there's certainly some question over exactly what happened in the midst of the firefight. But in this particular matter, that's not the most relevant issue.

The Canadian Government owes it to its citizens to uphold their Charter rights. They have not done so. Bring him back to Canada.... if there are still questions about his actions in Afghanistan, they can be dealt with here under Canadian law and supervision.

I think that this is the key point, Sonal. With no specific details as to exactly what he did best to bring him back to Canada and, as you contend, let the matter ".... be dealt with here under Canadian law and supervision."

I'm inclined to see it the same way, and there's certainly some question over exactly what happened in the midst of the firefight. But in this particular matter, that's not the most relevant issue.

The Canadian Government owes it to its citizens to uphold their Charter rights. They have not done so. Bring him back to Canada.... if there are still questions about his actions in Afghanistan, they can be dealt with here under Canadian law and supervision.

+1

And frankly I think it's an embarrassment to Canada, that the conservatives haven't brought him back to Canada. Other countries have taken back their citizens (repatriated them or extradited them), why aren't we. Guantanamo should be shut down.

I think what most are missing is that the only evidence that Omar killed anyone was obtained under torture.

The initial report indicated that he did not and probably could not have thrown the grenade and was changed under extreme pressure from those higher up in the command chain. This of course was never mentioned during his "trial"

For the moment at least Khadr is a Canadian Citizen and should be treated as such.

Khadr does also enjoy Egyptian citizenship. If King Harpo really believes that Khadr is as evil as he has been portrayed, then obvious course of action is to bring him back to Canada, let him serve out his sentence as originally agreed. Then if there is evidence that he violated the citizenship process, have a trial to revoke it. None of this, "We have evidence but cannot show it because it's classified" nonsense. If the evidence is there present it. Give Khadr a chance to repudiate it and let an unbiased judge decide his fate.

As an aside, I really do not like dual citizenship. Canada's citizenship process gives immigrants ample time to learn Canadian ways and to decide whether or not they want to become Canadian. Should they wish to retain their former citizenship, they can still live and work here indefinitely as Permanent Residents. Dual citizenship can put one in a position of split loyalty where what is required under one flag is banned under another. Under no circumstances should a citizen of another nation be allowed to run for Parliament or any of the Provincial Legislatures without first revoking that foreign citizenship.

He was born in Ontario.

AFAIK, (correct me if I'm wrong) but I don't think there is anything that can revoke the citizenship of someone who was born in Canada. His Egyptian citizenship may be through some familial connection.

If anyone should have been charged for a crime in this case it should have been the parents of Khadr who took a child to a war zone and involved him in such a situation.

He was born in Ontario.

AFAIK, (correct me if I'm wrong) but I don't think there is anything that can revoke the citizenship of someone who was born in Canada. His Egyptian citizenship may be through some familial connection.

If anyone should have been charged for a crime in this case it should have been the parents of Khadr who took a child to a war zone and involved him in such a situation.

I was not sure which was his country of birth. So unless he chooses to renounce his Canadian citizenship and live in Egypt, he is indeed Canada's responsibility. I agree that his father and mother bear the lions share of the blame in this mess.

I was not sure which was his country of birth. So unless he chooses to renounce his Canadian citizenship and live in Egypt, he is indeed Canada's responsibility. I agree that his father and mother bear the lions share of the blame in this mess.

From what I can tell from a quick look into it, he's never lived in Egypt, at least not for any significant amount of time.

Omar was born in Toronto. His parents have moved him back and forth between Toronto, Pakistan and Afghanistan for all of his life.

His father is Egyptian. His mother is Palestinian. Most of the children were born in Canada, and all the living members of the family live in Toronto.

Good Lord. The CONservatives just can't make a decision, can they?

Welcome back Omar Khadr (http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2012/04/19/19655201.html)

"Under the International Transfer of Offenders Act, he is a Canadian citizen. He is also a Canadian citizen under the Charter which entitles him to come back to Canada, eventually," Toews told QMI Agency.

"The issue is when does he come back to Canada? That's a determination I have to make and I haven't made any decision in that respect yet."

(Canoe.ca (http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2012/04/19/19655201.html))

The CONservatives just can't make a decision, can they?

Sure they can. It's "No" for now. And this is certainly not a pressing matter.

Sure they can. It's "No" for now. And this is certainly not a pressing matter.

Upholding the Charter is not a pressing matter?

They have been dragging their feet on this for years. Action is overdue.

Upholding the Charter is not a pressing matter?

They have been dragging their feet on this for years. Action is overdue.

Why would he want to uphold the charter when Bill C-30 is designed to bypass the Charter altogether?

Upholding the Charter is not a pressing matter?

They have been dragging their feet on this for years. Action is overdue.

It's only one guy.

It's only one guy.

aren't you libertarian?

aren't you libertarian?

Yep. What does that have to do with it?

that whole "individual rights & liberty" thing.

if "one guy" can have his rights discarded by our country, then we all can.

----

on a side note regarding the government taking him back, this is after they spent more than $3 million in legal fees trying to deny him his charter rights, and then when the US tells them jump, Harper says "how high?"

everything about this government reeks. the waste of money over their silly ideology and then the pavlovian response to anything the US tells them. it's embarrassing.

that whole "individual rights & liberty" thing.

if "one guy" can have his rights discarded by our country, then we all can.


Ensuring the freedom of criminals wouldn't be on the top of my list. Neither would "the right to have the government attempt to extradite you" be one of those that I would expect a federal government devote significant attention to. If they believed he had been wrongfully imprisoned, that would be another matter.

I see no evidence that Canada is jumping for the U.S. in this case--or else he would already be here.

Ensuring the freedom of criminals wouldn't be on the top of my list.

what exactly makes him a "criminal? you do realize he waited 8 years for a "trial", during which time he was mercilessly "interrogated" (many would say tortured) at Gitmo. When he did finally get a trial it was in a kangaroo court, and they basically forced a "confession" from him.

none of that would ever pass mustard by the standards of any modern day notion of rule of law.

If they believed he had been wrongfully imprisoned, that would be another matter.


he was denied his legal rights and due process. civil liberty groups have attacked the US on Gitmo for years. anyone who truly believes in civil liberties should be outraged by his treatment.


I see no evidence that Canada is jumping for the U.S. in this case--or else he would already be here.

the government went from spending $3 million dollars to fight his charter rights over the last 6 years to now considering taking him back after the US asked them late last week. all that has to be worked out now is when. 6 years vs days. that's a jump in political terms.

I see no evidence that Canada is jumping for the U.S. in this case--or else he would already be here.

The official word is that yes, the U.S. government wants Khadr repatriated to Canada as an "example" to other countries that still have citizens languishing in Guantánamo.

The right-wing in the U.S., however, sees this as a crime against all that is true and holy (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2012/04/19/obama-admin-seeks-release-of-terrorist-who-killed-us-soldier).

While no one has offered a concrete explanation for why the Obama administration might be doing this, some have mulled whether it’s his way of making peace after allowing the assassination of Osama Bin Laden.

(Awr Hawkins / Breitbart (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2012/04/19/obama-admin-seeks-release-of-terrorist-who-killed-us-soldier) via the lunatic-right fringe Judi McLeod / Canada Free Press (http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/46133))

The Canadian government has been accused of dragging its feet on this for some time. It was in 2009 that the Federal Court determined that the government violates his Charter rights by not immediately demanding his return to Canada.

That Vic Toews is now saying "Oh, yes, we just need to think about it a little more" is disingenuous at best.

what exactly makes him a "criminal? you do realize he waited 8 years for a "trial", during which time he was mercilessly "interrogated" (many would say tortured) at Gitmo. When he did finally get a trial it was in a kangaroo court, and they basically forced a "confession" from him.

he was denied his legal rights and due process. civil liberty groups have attacked the US on Gitmo for years. anyone who truly believes in civil liberties should be outraged by his treatment.

Killing a man makes him a criminal. He's subject to the laws of a foreign country and faced a military tribunal. This is the rule of law in the U.S.



the government went from spending $3 million dollars to fight his charter rights over the last 6 years to now considering taking him back after the US asked them late last week. all that has to be worked out now is when. 6 years vs days. that's a jump in political terms.

The government hasn't done anything to take him back yet. However, the Obama Administration has faced significant hurdles in repatriating the Guantanamo crew all over the world.

Killing a man makes him a criminal. He's subject to the laws of a foreign country and faced a military tribunal. This is the rule of law in the U.S.


he allegedly killed a man. there was some dispute that he even threw the grenade. he was denied any sort of semblance of a fair trial.

Secondly it was during a battle in a war zone. Killing someone in a war zone is different than killing someone on the corner of a residential neighbourhood. (otherwise half the US Military would be in jail) There are international laws that deal with these situations that the US simply dismissed.

Killing a man makes him a criminal. He's subject to the laws of a foreign country and faced a military tribunal. This is the rule of law in the U.S.


If there were any hard evidence that he killed anyone you might have a point. However a confession obtained via years of torture does not qualify. Nor does a trial where verdict and sentencing were pre-determined.

This is the sort of justice that in the past justifiably earned the Soviet Union and China world wide condemnation. 'Tis sad to see the self-proclaimed "Good Guys" following the same path.

The government hasn't done anything to take him back yet. However, the Obama Administration has faced significant hurdles in repatriating the Guantanamo crew all over the world.

Omar Khadr remains the only citizen of any NATO member nation who has not been repatriated.

Clearly such hurdles for other NATO members were somehow not as significant.

Omar Khadr remains the only citizen of any NATO member nation who has not been repatriated.

Clearly such hurdles for other NATO members were somehow not as significant.

How many were there?

How many were there?

It's hard to find complete information, since every reference seems to turn up "Omar is that last Western Citizen in Gitmo".

But from what incomplete information I can find, there were 9 British citizens, 7 French citizens, 1 Danish citizen, 9 Russian citizens, 1 Swedish citizen... all of whom have been repatriated.

Those Russkies aren't part of NATO!

Still, I see your point. He should have been repatriated--to jail--in a more timely fashion.

Hmmm, I was not aware he was born here. I thought I had read that he was born in the middle east. I guess that does change things. I suspect the correct recourse would be to bring him back put him in jail if guilty of murder and try him for treason.

The fact that the charter is being upheld is key. It has to be or why have it, we lose all protection from government and fellow man. If the charter needs to be changed that is one thing but it must be followed as it is written until such time it is changed.

I predict a heroes welcome for this guy in certain circles. Not necessarily radical Muslim ones either.

the fact that the charter is being upheld is key. It has to be or why have it, we lose all protection from government and fellow man. If the charter needs to be changed that is one thing but it must be followed as it is written until such time it is changed.

+1

Those Russkies aren't part of NATO!

Still, I see your point. He should have been repatriated--to jail--in a more timely fashion.

Precisely. If he'd like to appeal the charges or the process by which he was found guilty, he's within his rights to do so, just as any incarcerated citizen can. To me, whether or not he is actually guilty is a separate issue from repatriation.

The Canadian government first needs to stop stalling and begin the process of repatriating him, as other Western nations have already done for their citizens. Bring him here, as is his right under the Charter, and then we can deal with him per Canadian law and under Canadian supervision.

Precisely. If he'd like to appeal the charges or the process by which he was found guilty, he's within his rights to do so, just as any incarcerated citizen can. To me, whether or not he is actually guilty is a separate issue from repatriation.

The Canadian government first needs to stop stalling and begin the process of repatriating him, as other Western nations have already done for their citizens. Bring him here, as is his right under the Charter, and then we can deal with him per Canadian law and under Canadian supervision.

And people thought my opinion couldn't be swayed.

Nonetheless, he is no hero, and I won't be happy to see him back.

And people thought my opinion couldn't be swayed.

Nonetheless, he is no hero, and I won't be happy to see him back.

Your cold Libertarian heart could never stand for a deliberate violation of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. ;)

At this point, the child soldier/terrorist rhetoric on both sides is so overblown that what actually happened may never be entirely clarified. But ultimately, that's all a distraction from the repatriation issue.

The irony is that had the government moved to quickly and quietly repatriate him in the first place, there would probably have been a lot less fuss and folk heroism.

Your cold Libertarian heart ...

Warm libertarian heart.

I predict a heroes welcome for this guy in certain circles. Not necessarily radical Muslim ones either.

Not sure anyone considers him a hero.

However allowing the Government to abuse the rights of someone who is universally disliked, makes everyone else a potential victim of similar abuse. Once that gate is opened it is hard to re-close.

Not sure anyone considers him a hero.

However allowing the Government to abuse the rights of someone who is universally disliked, makes everyone else a potential victim of similar abuse. Once that gate is opened it is hard to re-close.

Not really the, circumstances surrounding Khadr are extremely rare and not likely to be replicated any time soon and I can't see how his situation "makes everyone a potential victim of similar abuse" as there is no logical argument for saying so, it is an unique individual situation that has absolutely nothing to do with the average Canadaian... nothing. Sorry have to call FUD on that post.

Not really the, circumstances surrounding Khadr are extremely rare and not likely to be replicated any time soon and I can't see how his situation "makes everyone a potential victim of similar abuse" as there is no logical argument for saying so, it is an unique individual situation that has absolutely nothing to do with the average Canadaian... nothing. Sorry have to call FUD on that post.

Once the precedent for charter abuse has been set, further abuse is inevitable and on far flimsier pretexts. Perhaps it might even go as far as pro-democracy demonstrators being surreptitiously shipped to the US so confessions can be tortured from their swollen lips. Time will tell.

King Harpo has further shown his disdain of the Charter with the introduction of Bill C-30. Clearly he is intent on defiling the Charter. For most Canadians this cannot in any way be considered a good thing.

Once the precedent for charter abuse has been set, further abuse is inevitable and on far flimsier pretexts. Perhaps it might even go as far as pro-democracy demonstrators being surreptitiously shipped to the US so confessions can be tortured from their swollen lips. Time will tell.

King Harpo has further shown his disdain of the Charter with the introduction of Bill C-30. Clearly he is intent on defiling the Charter. For most Canadians this cannot in any way be considered a good thing.

Perhaps in your world that seems to be based in FUD... my world is based on evidence on a case by case basis as opposed to broad generalizations based on Fear, uncertainty and doubt the very things you seem to be be most interested in...

The sky is falling...!!!! Take shelter!!!!

Perhaps in your world that seems to be based in FUD... my world is based on evidence on a case by case basis as opposed to broad generalizations based on Fear, uncertainty and doubt the very things you seem to be be most interested in...

The sky is falling...!!!! Take shelter!!!!

The evidence is the guy has been in prison for 10 years without due process of law and with absolute distain from his own government, in contravention of normal international protocol for dealing with people who are both children and in war zones. I am a conservative and I find this very very disturbing. due process is what stands between you and big brother. You jeopardize it in any way at your peril.

Certainly, I hope issues involving suspected terrorists are very few and far between.

However, when the Supreme Court of Canada rules that the Federal Government is violating a citizen's Charter rights, I would hope that we don't take a single step down that slippery slope by not addressing the issue promptly, as that does impact the average Canadian.

.

Omar was born in Canada.

He was there under his fathers care. His father was doing charity relief work. If you don't have a good relationship with the Taliban, and give them money, they kill you. It may or may not have been a front for supporting Islamic extremists. .

It could happen to you.

His dad was a terrorist. Don't try to say otherwise.

Taken from wiki"Because his father, Ahmed Khadr, had raised his family in Peshawar, Pakistan since 1985,[36][37] Omar spent his life moving back and forth between Canada and Pakistan. His mother also wished to raise her family outside of Canada due to her animosity toward Western social influences.[38] Khadr was enrolled in a school in Peshawar.
In 1992, Khadr's father was severely injured while in Logar, Afghanistan; the Khadr family moved back to Toronto so he could recuperate. .[37]"

Even the mother hated Western life. But they came here to use our country when it suited them, real upstanding people. Leave him there.

His dad was a terrorist. Don't try to say otherwise.

Taken from wiki"Because his father, Ahmed Khadr, had raised his family in Peshawar, Pakistan since 1985,[36][37] Omar spent his life moving back and forth between Canada and Pakistan. His mother also wished to raise her family outside of Canada due to her animosity toward Western social influences.[38] Khadr was enrolled in a school in Peshawar.
In 1992, Khadr's father was severely injured while in Logar, Afghanistan; the Khadr family moved back to Toronto so he could recuperate. .[37]"

Even the mother hated Western life. But they came here to use our country when it suited them, real upstanding people. Leave him there.

Just because someone hates Canada does not make them a terrorist. And a 15 year old kid defending himself when his house is under attack does not make him a terrorist either. If anything, it makes him normal.

Not really the, circumstances surrounding Khadr are extremely rare and not likely to be replicated any time soon and I can't see how his situation "makes everyone a potential victim of similar abuse" as there is no logical argument for saying so, it is an unique individual situation that has absolutely nothing to do with the average Canadaian... nothing. Sorry have to call FUD on that post.

It isn't so much the situation under the charter, but the relationship the federal government has with the Supreme Court that interests me here. If they find that Khadr's Charter rights are being violated, and the only method of redress is action by the feds, does that not mean they're required to act?

The evidence is the guy has been in prison for 10 years without due process of law and with absolute distain from his own government, in contravention of normal international protocol for dealing with people who are both children and in war zones. I am a conservative and I find this very very disturbing. due process is what stands between you and big brother. You jeopardize it in any way at your peril.

Lichen Software I was commenting specifically on eMacMan's claim that the Khadr case puts us all at risk for such treatment... It simply does not.

...It could happen to you.

If you are in a war zone and are keeping company with the wrong side...

It isn't so much the situation under the charter, but the relationship the federal government has with the Supreme Court that interests me here. If they find that Khadr's Charter rights are being violated, and the only method of redress is action by the feds, does that not mean they're required to act?

On this I agree, on it being an example of a slippery slope that puts all of us at risk I do not as this is a very unique case and situation.

If you are in a war zone and are keeping company with the wrong side...

An abuse is an abuse. Just because he happens to be your guy and claims to have a good excuse does not make it acceptable. If this was a Liberal government the howls from the con side would be deafening.

King Harpo is following this up with Bill C-30, with almost no changes from the failed original Liberal version. Like it or not abuse of the charter at the hands of the Government, does indeed get worse if Canadians are willing to tolerate it.

I'll take my chances with terrorists. Let's face it I am more likely to get struck by lightning than to be killed or maimed by a terrorist. OTOH Please preserve me from those that claim they are protecting me from terrorists. The price they demand is just way too high.

An abuse is an abuse. Just because he happens to be your guy and claims to have a good excuse does not make it acceptable. If this was a Liberal government the howls from the con side would be deafening.

King Harpo is following this up with Bill C-30, with almost no changes from the failed original Liberal version. Like it or not abuse of the charter at the hands of the Government, does indeed get worse if Canadians are willing to tolerate it.

I'll take my chances with terrorists. Let's face it I am more likely to get struck by lightning than to be killed or maimed by a terrorist. OTOH Please preserve me from those that claim they are protecting me from terrorists. The price they demand is just way too high.

Don't like it here go to Afghanistan, real estate is cheap.
Just like Mark Emery hated repressive rule in Canada and moved to Thailand then 6 months later he was back.
This is the cost of doing business to keep you safe and making being hit by lightening a higher risk.

If this was a Liberal government the howls from the con side would be deafening.

I highly doubt it.

I highly doubt it.

On this, Macfury and I agree - the Cons would not be howling for Khadr's charter rights to be protected. Their rhetoric would be entirely in line with the Breitbart bit I posted earlier.

An abuse is an abuse. Just because he happens to be your guy and claims to have a good excuse does not make it acceptable. If this was a Liberal government the howls from the con side would be deafening.

King Harpo is following this up with Bill C-30, with almost no changes from the failed original Liberal version. Like it or not abuse of the charter at the hands of the Government, does indeed get worse if Canadians are willing to tolerate it.

I'll take my chances with terrorists. Let's face it I am more likely to get struck by lightning than to be killed or maimed by a terrorist. OTOH Please preserve me from those that claim they are protecting me from terrorists. The price they demand is just way too high.

I never sided with the government's inaction merely refuted your claim that Kahdr's case somehow makes us all subject to such inaction. There is no evidence for this and until there is I still call FUD on your statement.

An abuse is an abuse. Just because he happens to be your guy and claims to have a good excuse does not make it acceptable. If this was a Liberal government the howls from the con side would be deafening.

King Harpo is following this up with Bill C-30, with almost no changes from the failed original Liberal version. Like it or not abuse of the charter at the hands of the Government, does indeed get worse if Canadians are willing to tolerate it.

I'll take my chances with terrorists. Let's face it I am more likely to get struck by lightning than to be killed or maimed by a terrorist. OTOH Please preserve me from those that claim they are protecting me from terrorists. The price they demand is just way too high.I must concur with eMM on his premiss that for Government to act arbitrary, discriminatory or selectively on the Khadr matter means they could act similarly on other matters, even matters that affect you or me.

Impinging on rights or freedoms while "protecting us" from a bogeyman is not something that I shall go along with quietly.

Lichen Software I was commenting specifically on eMacMan's claim that the Khadr case puts us all at risk for such treatment... It simply does not.

I guess my problem with this is to my optics, "We as the government of Canada do not like this family so we are just going to do what ever we can to be rid of them all." leaves everyone vulnerable to the dislike of the political masters of the day. The intransigence of the goverment in the face of supreme court rulings just reinforces my impression of this situation. The lack of respect by Vic Toews is incredible.

I guess my problem with this is to my optics, "We as the government of Canada do not like this family so we are just going to do what ever we can to be rid of them all." leaves everyone vulnerable to the dislike of the political masters of the day. The intransigence of the government in the face of supreme court rulings just reinforces my impression of this situation. The lack of respect by Vic Toews is incredible.

Yep that is about it and that's all.... Can't agree with "leaves everyone vulnerable to the dislike of the political masters of the day" as everyone is not in a war zone committing alleged crimes and treason...

This is a unique case unlike any other in Canadian jurisprudence and why the Supreme Court ruled the way it did...

Court refuses to order Khadr home (http://www.thestar.com/specialsections/omarkhadr/article/757580--court-refuses-to-order-khadr-home)

The Supreme Court has effectively admitted they don't have jurisdiction to make a legally binding ruling... it is up to the Government to decide... it seems their decision is pending and they aren't too interested in bringing Khadr to Canada any time soon...

Write you MP with your objections... just make sure it is from you and not some form e-mail... you will most likely get a much better response.

I never sided with the government's inaction merely refuted your claim that Kahdr's case somehow makes us all subject to such inaction. There is no evidence for this and until there is I still call FUD on your statement.

BTW I have a couple of German friends who were young teenagers in pre-WWII Germany. They rather vociferously disagree that it is OK to let these things go just because we do not happen to like the individuals involved.

Just curious though. If an underage Canadian/Israeli citizen were to be arrested in Iran and confess to assorted crimes after years of torture, and Iran was to offer to send him back to Canada with the understanding that he serve out the remainder of a jail sentence in Canada, would you similarly support leaving him hung out to dry in Iran?

BTW I have a couple of German friends who were young teenagers in pre-WWII Germany. They rather vociferously disagree that it is OK to let these things go just because we do not happen to like the individuals involved.
...


Yup, this is their awareness. Not to mention that a great many Germans over generations have suffered from that era. Let's not let the same stuff recur.

If you are in a war zone and are keeping company with the wrong side...

If you are in a war zone, especially as a child, you probably have little choice about what "side" you accompany.

I know very little about the facts of this case, and I don't care to learn more of the details. It's entirely possible, and even probable to me that Omar's dad was a Taliban supporter, and even that, at the age of 15 Omar himself may have believed he was learning to be a freedom fighter like his dad. All of this - his beliefs, attitudes, and actions in Afghanistan - are questions that a trial should address, but are completely irrelevant to wether or not Canada should be allowing one of its citizens to be held in Guantanamo without due process.

What we do know is that this individual 1) is a Canadian citizen, 2) was a child at the time of the events for which he has been accused, 3) he has not received a fair trial, 4) he has been subjected to torture, 5) 'confessed' under torture, and 6) was imprisoned for years without trial or due process.

So regardless of wether the individual in question is a paragon of virtue or a complete scumbag we'd all like to see rot in prison for the rest of his life, our government has utterly failed in its unequivocal responsibility to get him back to Canada, and to respect his rights under the Charter.

Vic Toews' actions on this file alone demonstrate him to be completely incompetent and an embarrassment to Canada. Towes should be fired immediately and the file given immediate priority by the new Minster.

I guess my problem with this is to my optics, "We as the government of Canada do not like this family so we are just going to do what ever we can to be rid of them all." leaves everyone vulnerable to the dislike of the political masters of the day. The intransigence of the goverment in the face of supreme court rulings just reinforces my impression of this situation. The lack of respect by Vic Toews is incredible.

This. :clap:

BTW I have a couple of German friends who were young teenagers in pre-WWII Germany. They rather vociferously disagree that it is OK to let these things go just because we do not happen to like the individuals involved.

Just curious though. If an underage Canadian/Israeli citizen were to be arrested in Iran and confess to assorted crimes after years of torture, and Iran was to offer to send him back to Canada with the understanding that he serve out the remainder of a jail sentence in Canada, would you similarly support leaving him hung out to dry in Iran?


See I never said I supported anyone being hung out to dry... show me where I said that... Again I simply disputed that Khadr's case puts us all at risk and you assume I don't support his repatriation which in fact I do... seems some people around here just want to read into what people say as opposed to what they actually say.

See I never said I supported anyone being hung to dry... show me where I said that... Again I simply disputed that Khadr's case puts us all at risk and you assume I don't support his repatriation which in fact I do... seems some people around here just want to read into what people say as opposed to what they actually say.

I'm going to preface this by saying you asked for this. ;)

But... is the bolded section really necessary?

While not directly insulting anyone (and therefore not really against any rules) I can't help but think that it's this kind of thing where something is unnecessarily made personal that creates a lot of enmity. (And I'm just picking examples as I happen upon them, so this is not an exhaustive review of everything everyone has said.)

I get that it's very frustrating to have one's words misinterpreted or taken out of context. But you address that already by saying that this is not what you said.

And now... back to your regularly schedule thread which may already be in progress.

I'm going to preface this by saying you asked for this. ;)

But... is the bolded section really necessary?

While not directly insulting anyone (and therefore not really against any rules) I can't help but think that it's this kind of thing where something is unnecessarily made personal that creates a lot of enmity. (And I'm just picking examples as I happen upon them, so this is not an exhaustive review of everything everyone has said.)

I get that it's very frustrating to have one's words misinterpreted or taken out of context. But you address that already by saying that this is not what you said.

And now... back to your regularly schedule thread which may already be in progress.

Perhaps not but was your post necessary? Seems to me your post was not necessary at all.

BTW eMacMan's post was personal by suggesting that I would be supportive of anyone being "hung out to dry". If you are going to cherry pick what constitutes making things personal, I'm not interested and points out to me the potential problems with a reputation rating system.

Perhaps not but was your post necessary? Seems to me your post was not necessary at all.

I refer you to these posts: (#61 and #49 under Reputation System.... I reorder my posts, so sometimes it doesn't work to link to them.)

http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/100097-reputation-system-discussion-4.html#post1189182

http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/100097-reputation-system-discussion-6.html#post1189135

Thank you for providing a good example of why I don't speak up, and why perhaps an anonymous system is needed.

EDIT: Regarding your edit, I a) pointed out explicitly that this was not exhaustive and b) did look at eMacMan's earlier post and thought that it more addressed what he believes you were saying, and not you personally.

I refer you to these posts: (#61 and #49 under Reputation System.... I reorder my posts, so sometimes it doesn't work to link to them.)

http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/100097-reputation-system-discussion-4.html#post1189182

http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/100097-reputation-system-discussion-6.html#post1189135

Thank you for providing a good example of why I don't speak up, and why perhaps an anonymous system is needed.

EDIT: Regarding your edit, I a) pointed out explicitly that this was not exhaustive and b) did look at eMacMan's earlier post and thought that it more addressed what he believes you were saying, and not you personally.

How is it that saying that someone is seeing only what they want to see rather than reading what has actually been said making it personal when it is a fact?

There is no insult, no derision just a statement of fact... are we going to become this hyper-sensitive about the possibility of stepping on someone's toes?

I'm stepping out of this, as I have no wish to further derail this thread.

There is no insult, no derision just a statement of fact... are we going to become this hyper-sensitive about the possibility of stepping on someone's toes?

It looks like this is what some people want, heaven help us.

Perhaps not but was your post necessary? Seems to me your post was not necessary at all.

BTW eMacMan's post was personal by suggesting that I would be supportive of anyone being "hung out to dry". If you are going to cherry pick what constitutes making things personal, I'm not interested and points out to me the potential problems with a reputation rating system.

More just curious. If your attitude is consistent at both extremes of the spectrum, then it is consistent and I have no problem at all with it.

Having watched what has been happening Stateside, I firmly believe that ignoring one individuals rights and privileges can very easily lead to much more invasive intrusions. At home Bill C-30 is a great example.

Long and short. The battle for human rights is one that is not won or lost in Afghanistan or Iran. It has to be fought at home and it needs to start with problems like Khadr's.

I will say this about the government's intransigence on the issue... As this thread alone shows the issue of Khadr and his repatriation is clearly very divisive and strongly felt.

When the government was in a minority position it is understandable that they dragged their heals on the issue fearing political fallout. Now that they have a majority there really is no longer even this "excuse" to fall back on... They should do the right thing grant him his rights under the Charter and bring him home.

When the government was in a minority position it is understandable that they dragged their heals on the issue fearing political fallout. Now that they have a majority there really is no longer even this "excuse" to fall back on... They should do the right thing grant him his rights under the Charter and bring him home.

We are in agreement.

I may be in the minority on this but I intensely dis-like boogeymen. In some ways many Muslims today find themselves in the same place as European Jews prior to and during WWII. For Muslims living in places like Iraq or even Libya, the boogeyman mentality has been nothing short of devastating.

Beyond that as I get older I see case after case where I am told to cower in terror from this or that boogeyman. In every case the guy telling me how much danger I am in, is using is using that boogeyman as a distraction to do something far worse than said boogeyman.

Back to bill C-30. Even under the flag of protecting us from terrorists Canadians found this bill so invasive that both a Liberal minority and a Conservative minority backed down. Now that he enjoys a majority Harper is pimping it again, this time to protect us all from the Kiddie Porn crowd. Even his most ardent supporters have said this bill is a very bad idea. A bad invasive bill is just that and needs to be stood up to no matter which boogeyman is being used as a diversionary tactic.

Back to bill C-30. Even under the flag of protecting us from terrorists Canadians found this bill so invasive that both a Liberal minority and a Conservative minority backed down. Now that he enjoys a majority Harper is pimping it again, this time to protect us all from the Kiddie Porn crowd. Even his most ardent supporters have said this bill is a very bad idea. A bad invasive bill is just that and needs to be stood up to no matter which boogeyman is being used as a diversionary tactic.

Did good ole Vic Toews apologize to everyone for calling of us who want to protect our privacy "child pornographers" with his "if your not with us, your with the child pornographers" statement? I can't remember. I really don't see how he'll get Bill C-30 through, even with a majority. Even the constituents out west that voted in Conservative MPs don't want it. Alot of Conservative MPs are scared of the bill, because it'll likely mean they won't get voted in next time, if they vote for the bill.

I have to agree with you that they using child porn as another boogeyman, to try and get Bill C-30 and then they'll use Bill C-30 for other things.

Toews move to delay Khadr’s return ‘more foot dragging’ (http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/politics/archives/2012/07/20120721-090937.html)

Canada's public safety minister has defended his decision to put the repatriation of war criminal Omar Khadr on hold.

On Friday, Vic Toews cited concerns over the release of "very relevant" information from the U.S. on the convicted murderer's mental state, while a justice-advocacy group accused the government of more "foot dragging."Alex Neve of Amnesty International Canada, said the government has "had years" to gather the information it needs to bring Khadr back from the U.S. - a country whose authorities Neve said would not allow Khadr to return north of the border if they considered him a threat.

"It's hard to see this as anything but more foot dragging," Neve said.

Neve also called Welner's assessment of Khar "bigoted," and pointed instead to comments of psychiatrist and former military officer Dr. Stephen Xenakis, who in 2010 deemed Khadr as reformed and not a threat to society.

(SunNews (http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/politics/archives/2012/07/20120721-090937.html))

Yep, and if Toews didn't ask for his medical psychological background and something went wrong after his return to Canada, people would be all over him for that too. ;)

Alex Neve of Amnesty International Canada, said the government has "had years" to gather the information it needs to bring Khadr back from the U.S.

Seems like foot dragging to me too.

Seems like foot dragging to me too.

I think Herr Toews is hoping if he can drag that foot long enough, he will find some vague link between Khadr and a Kiddie Porn ring. Probably needs Bill C-30 passed to speed the process along.:D

BTW Herr is German for Mr. Since we must show fake respect for our politicians this is close as I can manage when it comes to Vic.

I think Herr Toews is hoping if he can drag that foot long enough, he will find some vague link between Khadr and a Kiddie Porn ring. Probably needs Bill C-30 passed to speed the process along.:D

BTW Herr is German for Mr. Since we must show fake respect for our politicians this is close as I can manage when it comes to Vic.

Toews is not German, your attempt to justify your obvious reference to him being an Nazi is simply lame and your real meaning is completely transparent to everyone.

Toews is not German, your attempt to justify your obvious reference to him being an Nazi is simply lame and your real meaning is completely transparent to everyone.

Herr as stated was simply a way to fake respect as required. Because the Harper Regimes absolute loyalty to the State of Israel is well established, it would take a huge leap of imagination to think that any of his Ministers were being called Nazis. Perhaps you were thinking in terms of Bill C-30 when you made the Nazi leap?

Furthermore the implication that being Germanic is equivalent to being Nazi is extremely insulting.

Herr as stated was simply a way to fake respect as required. Because the Harper Regimes absolute loyalty to the State of Israel is well established, it would take a huge leap of imagination to think that any of his Ministers were being called Nazis. Perhaps you were thinking in terms of Bill C-30 when you made the Nazi leap?

Furthermore the implication that being Germanic is equivalent to being Nazi is extremely insulting.

Pure BS ever word of it.

Toews move to delay Khadr’s return ‘more foot dragging’ (http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/politics/archives/2012/07/20120721-090937.html)



(SunNews (http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/politics/archives/2012/07/20120721-090937.html))

I think I'm on the opposite side of the fence here.

He is Canadian so I get that, but cripes, he has ties to Al Qaeda, his family still (allegedly and from what i'm told from a secure source), still has ties to them and he killed a US soldier in combat. Sorry, it was worse - it was a medic! Those who help others in battle.

I could care less if it were the Conservatives, Liberals or NDP, I think Toews is right to ask for this information on Khadr.

Am I the only one who thinks that it's dangerous to let an ex?-terrorist BACK onto our turf? Especially one who will no doubt sue our govt, making millions which he could use to siphon back to the terrorists?

I think this is different than a criminal who committed a crime in another country b/c he was involved with terrorists.

Al Qaeda are a completely different breed. They don't just commit murders. They hate....HATE our way of living. They HATE the Western world as a whole...everything we do and stand for.

I don't want them here and I don't care if he's Canadian or not. For the record, I'm a fierce and loyal Canadian, but I draw the line there.

I don't buy that he was 15. 15 year old teenagers aren't idiots. They know what they're doing. Plus, like I said, his family is still (allegedly) involved with terrorists. Plus they fact they were 'proud' he killed a US medic. :ptptptptp

I hope he never comes back. He doesn't deserve it.

Of course, this is my opinion and perhaps not the popular one. lol

Of course, this is my opinion and perhaps not the popular one. lol

Your opinion is popular with me...;)

I understand why the feds need to act on this, just on principle--it's just unfortunate that the result is bringing this character to Canada.

Let him come back.

Covertly install a GPS tracker and audio monitor in his head first. Let's see who he hangs out with and what they have to say.

Probably already done. Allow me to hang my tin foil hat up now.

Your opinion is popular with me...;)

And with me.

On top of that, I don't understand why some people see this as such an important story. I suspect it's the fact that fighting alongside enemies of the West makes him a lefty poster boy of some sort.

On top of that, I don't understand why some people see this as such an important story. I suspect it's the fact that fighting alongside enemies of the West makes him a lefty poster boy of some sort.

Good lord. He was 15 when the crime to which he confessed occurred. That qualified him more as a child victim of war than as a terrorist. If he had been in Canada at the time, he would have had the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms to support him and you wouldn't even know his name. As it stands he had now been a prisoner in Gitmo for nearly ten years. Even the Americans who convicted him want him sent back to Canada to serve out his sentence.

Good lord. He was 15 when the crime to which he confessed occurred. That qualified him more as a child victim of war than as a terrorist. If he had been in Canada at the time, he would have had the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms to support him and you wouldn't even know his name. As it stands he had now been a prisoner in Gitmo for nearly ten years. Even the Americans who convicted him want him sent back to Canada to serve out his sentence.

The Charter would have zero to do with not knowing his name that would be because of the Young Offenders Act and even at that when it is a crime of as serious nature as this one was he can still be tried as an adult.

However, the Supreme Court has ruled his Charter rights have been denied and based on that he should be brought back to serve out this sentence here but is doesn't mean people have to be happy about it.

The Charter would have zero to do with not knowing his name that would be because of the Young Offenders Act and even at that when it is a crime of as serious nature as this one was he can still be tried as an adult.

However, the Supreme Court has ruled his Charter rights have been denied and based on that he should be brought back to serve out this sentence here but is doesn't mean people have to be happy about it.

Since when is people's happiness relevant? There are all kinds of horrible people in Canadian prisons, and we certainly do not have to like them, but at least all had the benefit of a fair trial under Canadian law. When you compare Omar Khadr allegedly lobbing a grenade in self-defense at the age if 15 with say Mark Twitchell, who dismembered Johnny Altinger after luring him online, I think it's a travesty of justice that Twitchell has all the benefit of the doubt while Khadr does not. This continual delay by the Harper gov't sure smells like racism.

Since when is people's happiness relevant? There are all kinds of horrible people in Canadian prisons, and we certainly do not have to like them, but at least all had the benefit of a fair trial under Canadian law. When you compare Omar Khadr allegedly lobbing a grenade in self-defense at the age if 15 with say Mark Twitchell, who dismembered Johnny Altinger after luring him online, I think it's a travesty of justice that Twitchell has all the benefit of the doubt while Khadr does not. This continual delay by the Harper gov't sure smells like racism.

You do realize that people's happiness or lack there of is relevant to almost everything that human beings do, that is why they call it "the pursuit of happiness"... It was simply an obvious statement of fact relating to those who don't want him back, they may not be happy about it but the Supreme Court has ruled and that is it... he should be brought back.

This continual delay smells like they have a constituency who don't want him back... i.e. politics. The Libs didn't want him back either or at least made no efforts to repatriate him either. Racism has nothing to do with it...

You do realize that people's happiness or lack there of is relevant to almost everything that human beings do, that is why they call it "the pursuit of happiness"... It was simply an obvious statement of fact relating to those who don't want him back, they may not be happy about it but the Supreme Court has ruled and that is it... he should be brought back.

This continual delay smells like they have a constituency who don't want him back... i.e. politics. The Libs didn't want him back either or at least made no efforts to repatriate him either. Racism has nothing to do with it...

Racism has everything to do with it. The common refrain I hear is send him back to his own country and se how he does, since he looks to be of Arabic origin. Well guess what? He was born in Toronto, which makes him just as Canadian as you or I. I would also suggest that "the pursuit of happiness" is meant to refer to your own personal pursuit, not the glee or lack thereof one may feel about the news you read on the front page of your newspaper. How I feel about it is irrelevant…justice cannot be based simply on what's popular. And you are right: the Supreme court has ruled, long ago I might add—it is the government that has erred.

And finally, let us not forget that Khadr was a CHILD at the time of the alleged crime. Here he is at age 14.

24651

Why post the picture? Is that supposed to be part of your argument?

Since when is people's happiness relevant? There are all kinds of horrible people in Canadian prisons, and we certainly do not have to like them, but at least all had the benefit of a fair trial under Canadian law. When you compare Omar Khadr allegedly lobbing a grenade in self-defense at the age if 15 with say Mark Twitchell, who dismembered Johnny Altinger after luring him online, I think it's a travesty of justice that Twitchell has all the benefit of the doubt while Khadr does not. This continual delay by the Harper gov't sure smells like racism.

You may call it his self defense to throw garnade at the allied troops that are there trying to prevent the spread of terrorism by Islamist extremists..Yet why his whole family who have been on record they hate our western life style and country living in Canada as well his father and brother are part of the Islamist extremists..

I for one am glad the government is taking their time in doing what ever research they can on this convicted extremist who is guilty of killing a solider.

Once he has served his sentence you know he will be back on the streets trying to spread his hate like his family taught him too.. Not to mention I am sure he will sue the Government in hope to receive millions, in which case it will be funneled back to his 'family's country' - he maybe born in Canada but surely doesn't respect his birth country.

I am not sure why Canada has to bring back convicted killers home? should they not stay and pay for the crime they committed? if that is the case - every convicted Canadian killers around the world should be flown home then..

Racism has everything to do with it. The common refrain I hear is send him back to his own country and se how he does, since he looks to be of Arabic origin. Well guess what? He was born in Toronto, which makes him just as Canadian as you or I. I would also suggest that "the pursuit of happiness" is meant to refer to your own personal pursuit, not the glee or lack thereof one may feel about the news you read on the front page of your newspaper. How I feel about it is irrelevant…justice cannot be based simply on what's popular. And you are right: the Supreme court has ruled, long ago I might add—it is the government that has erred.

And finally, let us not forget that Khadr was a CHILD at the time of the alleged crime. Here he is at age 14.

24651

Sigh... boy you get worked up over this issue eh?

Racism is not the issue for the government and I couldn't give a rat's a** about the public's refrain. As for the happiness aspect you seem a little overly focused on it as it was a passing comment and was not meant to be part of the debate... read what I was saying and you will see that... I didn't realize I needed to throw in a couple of ;) to make it clear.

I have acknowledged that in every post I made on the subject it seems you want to debate someone who is actually agreeing with you on this point.

Who cares what he looked like at 14... post a photo of Luka Rocco Magnotta or Paul Bernardo and I bet they look all cute and innocent as well... but you know what they at least waited until they were adults before they started killing people so who is more evil a kid who kills people or an adult?... Maybe the killer who is a child just got started early with their career and is a prodigy? ;) ;) ;)

Racism is not the issue for the government and I couldn't give a rat's a** about the public's refrain.

Exactly. It's his status as a murderer (and potential terrorist indoctrination) that's significant.

You may call it his self defense to throw garnade at the allied troops that are there trying to prevent the spread of terrorism by Islamist extremists..Yet why his whole family who have been on record they hate our western life style and country living in Canada as well his father and brother are part of the Islamist extremists..

I for one am glad the government is taking their time in doing what ever research they can on this convicted extremist who is guilty of killing a solider.

Once he has served his sentence you know he will be back on the streets trying to spread his hate like his family taught him too.. Not to mention I am sure he will sue the Government in hope to receive millions, in which case it will be funneled back to his 'family's country' - he maybe born in Canada but surely doesn't respect his birth country.

I am not sure why Canada has to bring back convicted killers home? should they not stay and pay for the crime they committed? if that is the case - every convicted Canadian killers around the world should be flown home then..

They are planning to close Gitmo, in case you hadn't heard. The Americans who tried and convicted him also want him sent home to Canada. He would not be free, since he has already pleaded guilty; he would serve his remaining sentence in a Canadian jail.

Also, I know many people who bitch and complain about Canada all the time, some who even hate it at times, but that does not take away their Canadian citizenship.

You seem to be very sure of a great many things that have not happened yet. I am only sure that this subject exposes a great deal of hypocrisy and racism on this forum.

Exactly. It's his status as a murderer (and potential terrorist indoctrination) that's significant.

If that's the case, shouldn't we be trying to send all the Canadian murderers to prisons in other countries as well? Let me repeat: the Americans who tried and convicted him also want him to serve his time in Canada. Are Canadian prisons not good enough for you?

If that's the case, shouldn't we be trying to send all the Canadian murderers to prisons in other countries as well? Let me repeat: the Americans who tried and convicted him also want him to serve his time in Canada. Are Canadian prisons not good enough for you?

Is that supposed to imply some sort of moral statement on the part of the Americans? They simply don't want him.

They are planning to close Gitmo, in case you hadn't heard. The Americans who tried and convicted him also want him sent home to Canada. He would not be free, since he has already pleaded guilty; he would serve his remaining sentence in a Canadian jail.

Also, I know many people who bitch and complain about Canada all the time, some who even hate it at times, but that does not take away their Canadian citizenship.

You seem to be very sure of a great many things that have not happened yet. I am only sure that this subject exposes a great deal of hypocrisy and racism on this forum.

Wow really...? Who ever said anything that would lead you to believe that?? The common reason that has been expressed is that he is a murder, potentialy a terrorist and has family ties to Al Qaeda. Who ever said anything along the lines of "Let the rat bastard Arab rot in jail"... or some such???... No one.

IMO your statement "this subject exposes a great deal of hypocrisy and racism on this forum" is completely unfounded and presumptuous in the extreme.

If that's the case, shouldn't we be trying to send all the Canadian murderers to prisons in other countries as well? Let me repeat: the Americans who tried and convicted him also want him to serve his time in Canada. Are Canadian prisons not good enough for you?

What??? He is already in a foreign prison and was never incarcerated here... your argument is starting to get seriously convoluted.

Who cares what he looked like at 14... post a photo of Luka Rocco Magnotta or Paul Bernardo and I bet they look all cute and innocent as well... but you know what they at least waited until they were adults before they started killing people so who is more evil a kid who kills people or an adult?... Maybe the killer who is a child just got started early with their career and is a prodigy? ;) ;) ;)

I posted the picture because that's about how old he was when he allegedly threw the grenade that killed a US soldier. He has pleaded guilty to this, even though he has a very good defense, since the building he was in was under attack by US forces. Are you suggesting that US forces never make mistakes or fire on civilians, or kill the wrong people accidentally? Also, the other convicted murderers that you mention had been adults for a very long time before murdering their victims in a premeditated fashion. Big difference.

What??? He is already in a foreign prison and was never incarcerated here... your argument is starting to get seriously convoluted.

That prison is closing and those same Americans want him to go to Canada. Read the news.

Wow really...? Who ever said anything that would lead you to believe that?? The common reason that has been expressed is that he is a murder, potentialy a terrorist and has family ties to Al Qaeda. Who ever said anything along the lines of "Let the rat bastard Arab rot in jail"... or some such???... No one.

IMO your statement "this subject exposes a great deal of hypocrisy and racism on this forum" is completely unfounded and presumptuous in the extreme.

Well…you just said it.

I posted the picture because that's about how old he was when he allegedly threw the grenade that killed a US soldier. He has pleaded guilty to this, even though he has a very good defense, since the building he was in was under attack by US forces. Are you suggesting that US forces never make mistakes or fire on civilians, or kill the wrong people accidentally? Also, the other convicted murderers that you mention had been adults for a very long time before murdering their victims in a premeditated fashion. Big difference.

Exactly. Therein lies the rub and so begs the question... who is more "evil" a child murder or an adult murder? A child is supposedly "innocent" and can't know any better, but what if they do? I certainly knew at 15 it is wrong to kill someone... didn't you?

Well…you just said it.

What the f**k are you talking about????? Do I have to be racist or harbour racist tendencies because I know what racists might say??? You've gone off the deep of logic my friend and I resent your insinuation very, very much!!! :mad: :ptptptptp

That prison is closing and those same Americans want him to go to Canada. Read the news.

Irrelevant to your statement... "If that's the case, shouldn't we be trying to send all the Canadian murderers to prisons in other countries as well?" He's already there and was never sent there by the Canadian government.

Read your own post and stop being so GD condescending and higher than mighty... it doesn't look good on you.

That prison is closing and those same Americans want him to go to Canada. Read the news.

You act as if though its closure is imminent. Efforts to shut it down have been extremely problematic. As of July 2012, 168 detainees remain at Guantanamo.

Why post the picture? Is that supposed to be part of your argument?

Absolutely. Ever see 12 Angry Men? Juror #8 eventually convinces the other 11 jurors to reconsider their positions after looking closely at all the evidence. They realize their initial support of a guilty verdict was based on prejudice, racism, and assumptions that proved to be false. The boy in the story had a right to a fair trial and could not be convicted if there was a reasonable doubt.

All of the interviews I have heard or read about Khadr suggest a similar circumstance. He did not have a fair trial; he had a military trial. I followed it closely. The only reason he could be convicted was that he pleaded guilty, apparently under the promise of being transferred to a Canadian prison. He could not have been convicted on evidence alone, since nobody actually saw throw the grenade, nor did he know exactly who it would hit.

Anyway, I am not likely to convince you nor the others here who seem to have a pretty definite view of the danger Khadr would pose to national security from within a Canadian prison cell. I just wish people would do some research before they spout off.

Exactly. Therein lies the rub and so begs the question... who is more "evil" a child murder or an adult murder? A child is supposedly "innocent" and can't know any better, but what if they do? I certainly knew at 15 it is wrong to kill someone... didn't you?

Well, regardless of your personal beliefs about what age a person loses their innocence, we do have laws in this country to protect young offenders and give them a better shot at rehabilitation. I'm not saying I agree with those laws, but they nonetheless exist to protect Canadian citizens, of which Omar Khadr is one.

Absolutely. Ever see 12 Angry Men? Juror #8 eventually convinces the other 11 jurors to reconsider their positions after looking closely at all the evidence. They realize their initial support of a guilty verdict was based on prejudice, racism, and assumptions that proved to be false. The boy in the story had a right to a fair trial and could not be convicted if there was a reasonable doubt.

All of the interviews I have heard or read about Khadr suggest a similar circumstance. He did not have a fair trial; he had a military trial. I followed it closely. The only reason he could be convicted was that he pleaded guilty, apparently under the promise of being transferred to a Canadian prison. He could not have been convicted on evidence alone, since nobody actually saw throw the grenade, nor did he know exactly who it would hit.

Anyway, I am not likely to convince you nor the others here who seem to have a pretty definite view of the danger Khadr would pose to national security from within a Canadian prison cell. I just wish people would do some research before they spout off.


What makes you think they haven't?? They just have come to a different conclusion than you based on the evidence. I didn't realize you were a Supreme Court Judge and your opinion was the only one that matters or has the right to be expressed.

Absolutely. Ever see 12 Angry Men? Juror #8 eventually convinces the other 11 jurors to reconsider their positions after looking closely at all the evidence. They realize their initial support of a guilty verdict was based on prejudice, racism, and assumptions that proved to be false.

This ain't the movies, and posting a photo of the murderer doesn't change my opinion. The idea that you believe you may be exposing some sort of underlying racism with this image is somewhat embarrassing.

What makes you think they haven't?? They just have come to a different conclusion than you based on the evidence. I didn't realize you were a Supreme Court Judge and your opinion was the only one that matters or has the right to be expressed.

Well, I try to keep that fact quiet. ;););)

Well, regardless of your personal beliefs about what age a person loses their innocence, we do have laws in this country to protect young offenders and give them a better shot at rehabilitation. I'm not saying I agree with those laws, but they nonetheless exist to protect Canadian citizens, of which Omar Khadr is one.

He could have been tried as an adult here because of the nature of the crime under the Young Offenders Act as I have already stated.

This ain't the movies, and posting a photo of the murderer doesn't change my opinion. The idea that you believe you may be exposing some sort of underlying racism with this image is somewhat embarrassing.

No, it's just that Khadr bears more than a passing resemblance to the kid in the film who's accused of murdering his own father. My own bias, I admit.

He could have been tried as an adult here because of the nature of the crime under the Young Offenders Act as I have already stated.

Killing an intruder in self-defense is a far cry from murder in the first or even second degree. The point is that this Canadian citizen could have been tried in Canada if the gov't had insisted and received a fair trial. Now we'll never know.

They are planning to close Gitmo, in case you hadn't heard. The Americans who tried and convicted him also want him sent home to Canada. He would not be free, since he has already pleaded guilty; he would serve his remaining sentence in a Canadian jail.

Also, I know many people who bitch and complain about Canada all the time, some who even hate it at times, but that does not take away their Canadian citizenship.

You seem to be very sure of a great many things that have not happened yet. I am only sure that this subject exposes a great deal of hypocrisy and racism on this forum.

if Gitmo is American they should send him to the prisons in US, since he has killed a US citizen and tried on US property .

The people you know - that hate Canada - have the family members been part of a terror cell? .. so stop protecting this guy.. I not sure what your point is and why you would want a convicted terrorist with a family of terrorists back in Canada.. not sure why help the guy?
I could careless of his color or race or age or sex.. he and his family are terrorists .. his father died helping Al Qaida and his brother is a terrorist as well..

Also my point is if you help him, then you should bring home all convicted killers home too.. NOT.. do the crime pay the fine.. why should we Canadian tax payers, pay for it..

also posting a picture of something will not change or bias my views..
here I am posting a picture of kittens ... still doesn't mean i want any or will save them from destruction because they have been too long at the shelter.
http://freeimagesarchive.com/data/media/21/9_kittens.jpg

Killing an intruder in self-defense is a far cry from murder in the first or even second degree. The point is that this Canadian citizen could have been tried in Canada if the gov't had insisted and received a fair trial. Now we'll never know.

What??? I really have no idea what you are talking about here... He was in a military encampment... in a war zone... you are seriously going to try and equate that with "Killing an intruder in self-defense"... that is as far detached from the reality of the situation as to have no comparative relevance whatsoever.

And exactly what means of "insistence" would have accomplished that?

The Libs didn't do it and yet you seem to want to place all the blame on the current government even though the Libs had 3.5 years (Khadr was captured on July 27, 2002 by American forces, the Cons came to power on January 23, 2006) to make such "insistent" "demands"/pleas and they didn't... yet you only want to blame the current government for this lack of "insistence".

And exactly what means of "insistence" would have accomplished that?

The Libs didn't do it and yet you seem to want to place all the blame on the current government even though the Libs had 3.5 years (Khadr was captured on July 27, 2002 by American forces, the Cons came to power on January 23, 2006) to make such "insistent" "demands"/pleas and they didn't... yet you only want to blame the current government for this lack of "insistence".

good point.. I think everyone is always trying to blame the current government for the previous ones mistakes..

if Gitmo is American they should send him to the prisons in US, since he has killed a US citizen and tried on US property .

The people you know - that hate Canada - have the family members been part of a terror cell? .. so stop protecting this guy.. I not sure what your point is and why you would want a convicted terrorist with a family of terrorists back in Canada.. not sure why help the guy?
I could careless of his color or race or age or sex.. he and his family are terrorists .. his father died helping Al Qaida and his brother is a terrorist as well..

Also my point is if you help him, then you should bring home all convicted killers home too.. NOT.. do the crime pay the fine.. why should we Canadian tax payers for it..

Not remotely possible as there was not even a pretense of a fair trial. Once on US soil the verdict would be tossed as evidence obtained under torture would be deemed inadmissible.

BO would dearly love to get Khadr out of Gitmo so they shut the embarrassment down. We can only hope that the Harper Government is dragging its feet to gain some much needed concessions as to FATCA. Yea I know not a snow balls chance in Gitmo.

Not remotely possible as there was not even a pretense of a fair trial. Once on US soil the verdict would be tossed as evidence obtained under torture would be deemed inadmissible.

BO would dearly love to get Khadr out of Gitmo so they shut the embarrassment down. We can only hope that the Harper Government is dragging its feet to gain some much needed concessions as to FATCA. Yea I know not a snow balls chance in Gitmo.

Oh... my... god... I don't know whether to laugh or to cry if you are serious. :yikes:

Khadr, a 24-year-old Canadian citizen and the youngest detainee held at Guantanamo, pleaded guilty to murder, material support for terrorism and other charges Monday, which means an early end to the first military commission trial conducted during the Obama administration.

The sentencing phase of Khadr's case is now under way and is expected to conclude by the end of the week. The charges carry a maximum of life in prison.

The terms of Khadr's plea deal have not been made public. But a source close to the case said the agreement calls for an eight-year sentence. One year of that would be served in U.S. custody, and the balance would be served in Canada.
Col. Dave Lapan, a Pentagon spokesman, said that if the jury panel agrees to a sentence that differs from the terms of the plea agreement, Khadr would receive whichever sentence is shorter.

Well, it certainly looks to me like they messed up on the terms of his incarceration. It's certainly been considerably longer than one year in the US already. Try going on ten years behind bars, quite a lot for an eight year sentence.

The article is from October 2010. If they delay too long, there will be no sentence left to serve when he comes to Canada and hence no opportunity for rehabilitation. Is that what we really want?

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-10-26/us/khadr.statement_1_omar-khadr-guilty-plea-afghanistan?_s=PM:US

What??? I really have no idea what you are talking about here... He was in a military encampment... in a war zone... you are seriously going to try and equate that with "Killing an intruder in self-defense"... that is as far detached from the reality of the situation as to have no comparative relevance whatsoever.

And exactly what means of "insistence" would have accomplished that?

The Libs didn't do it and yet you seem to want to place all the blame on the current government even though the Libs had 3.5 years (Khadr was captured on July 27, 2002 by American forces, the Cons came to power on January 23, 2006) to make such "insistent" "demands"/pleas and they didn't... yet you only want to blame the current government for this lack of "insistence".

His trial didn't take place until long after Harper came to power in 2006. This does not absolve either the Libs or the Cons from representing its citizens internationally. The trial itself took place in Cuba—not exactly American soil either. And it is the Harper government that continues to drag its feet. As I explained in a previous post, by the time Khadr finally comes to Canada, there may not be any sentence left to serve. Is that what you want?

also posting a picture of something will not change or bias my views..
here I am posting a picture of kittens ... still doesn't mean i want any or will save them from destruction because they have been too long at the shelter.
http://freeimagesarchive.com/data/media/21/9_kittens.jpg

Cute kittens. I sure hope they don't grow up to become terrorists.

Oh... my... god... I don't know whether to laugh or to cry if you are serious. :yikes:

Foreign policy is all about sticking it to seniors--hardworking ones, no less.

His trial didn't take place until long after Harper came to power in 2006. This does not absolve either the Libs or the Cons from representing its citizens internationally. The trial itself took place in Cuba—not exactly American soil either. And it is the Harper government that continues to drag its feet. As I explained in a previous post, by the time Khadr finally comes to Canada, there may not be any sentence left to serve. Is that what you want?

"Cuba&mdash"??? You have other posts that contain such gibberish and I have to infer what you mean... please explain what this series of letters is supposed to mean... and this one... Well&hellip...???

Personally, I really don't care that much where he serves out his sentence... except if he serves it out here then we have to pay for it... If he serves it in a foreign prison then someone else is paying for it...

I'm Ok with that from a tax dollar perspective... from a Charter perspective that the Supreme Court has ruled on then he should be brought "home" (one that he and his family clearly have no allegiance to) ASAP...

I sometimes wonder how much the people who care so much for the well being of the likes of Khadr give a rat's a** about their neighbour down the street who may be suffering any number of injustices or troubles... the cause celeb is just all too easy because it doesn't require any personal involvement or effort whatsoever.

Take someone into your home who is suffering from domestic abuse for 6 weeks to keep them safe and then maybe we can talk realistically about this issue...

You're so worried about Khadr...? Try worrying about the people right next to you first and actually doing something about it... it helps to keep things in perspective. ;)

I sometimes wonder how much the people who care so much for the well being of the likes of Khadr give a rat's a** about their neighbour down the street who may be suffering any number of injustices or troubles... the cause celeb is just all too easy because it doesn't require any personal involvement or effort whatsoever.

Take someone into your home who is suffering from domestic abuse for 6 weeks to keep them safe and then maybe we can talk realistically about this issue...

You're so worried about Khadr... try worrying about the people right next to you first and actually doing something about it... it helps to keep things in perspective. ;)

when I was younger my home was like a refugee camp.. My parents always took people in who needed help.. it drove me nuts.. because some of them did not appreciate what we did for them - most of them did, not all- some of them expected the help and were ungrateful.

But my parents always said try to help some one out who is in need, in case you ever need it.
I always try to help others and I have learned - I am starting not to be so generous as the few are ruining it for the others.

Good lord. It's a long dash on my iPhone, not sure why it doesn't format the same way on your device. I have grown tired of this conversation, and not a lot of growth is happening at the moment. I'll check back later to see if any seeds have germinated. Housework beckons.

As someone who dislikes the Harper government, my sympathy for Khadr is rather limited. It's too bad he had such a screwed up family, and found himself where he did. The definition of a child soldier is a little thin, because he was 15 at the time of capture. Though he was a child soldier given his involvement prior, to turning 15.

I don't think he should be coddled, or given special treatment. But he should be afforded whatever rights he has, and a fair judgment. The Harper government, for whatever it's reasons, are now dragging their feet despite having agreed to take him. I believe it's for political reasons, not the BS excuses tossed out and swallowed by many.

Hopefully this post doesn't elicit any foaming at the mouth responses I've seen so far.

Good lord. It's a long dash on my iPhone, not sure why it doesn't format the same way on your device. I have grown tired of this conversation, and not a lot of growth is happening at the moment. I'll check back later to see if any seeds have germinated. Housework beckons.

Growth=Conversion to your ideas?

The seeds were sterile, and planting was poorly executed, so they will not ever grow.

Good lord. It's a long dash on my iPhone, not sure why it doesn't format the same way on your device. I have grown tired of this conversation, and not a lot of growth is happening at the moment. I'll check back later to see if any seeds have germinated. Housework beckons.

My "device" is a Mac Pro... Maybe your "device" is the problem...

Good lord. It's a long dash on my iPhone, not sure why it doesn't format the same way on your device. I have grown tired of this conversation, and not a lot of growth is happening at the moment. I'll check back later to see if any seeds have germinated. Housework beckons.

Growth=Conversion to your ideas?

The seeds were sterile, and planting was poorly executed, so they will not ever grow.

Yep seems to be the case... It seems to be more an unwillingness to accept that not everyone comes to the same conclusion that you do... even with all the "facts" as we know them... just more condescension and holier than thou posts...

Quite sad really... especially when if you don't agree with someone else's opinion that makes you a racist... very sad (and ironic actually) indeed... :( ...

Makes me think that fjnmusic has not experienced actual racism first hand and what it really means...

fjnmusic's notion that any of the posts here constitute racism indicates to me a lack of ever having experienced it first hand as what goes on here (at least in this thread) ain't it. Not even close.

Screature, you're reading way too much into this. My device is an iPhone 4S. You get a long dash by holding down the dash key until a long dash appears. As far as condescension, look in the mirror. I have not experienced much racism myself, but my friends and students certainly have. The conversation was getting pretty static and I have things to do, so like I said, I'll check back later.

And last point: if Omar Khadr's name had been Thomas O'Connor, he'd have been back on Canadian soil several years ago. That's what I mean by racism.

And last point: if Omar Khadr's name had been Thomas O'Connor, he'd have been back on Canadian soil several years ago. That's what I mean by racism.

Under that faulty premise, Marc Emery would have been repatriated months ago

FreeMarc.ca | Free Marc (http://freemarc.ca/group/freemarcca)

Screature, you're reading way too much into this. My device is an iPhone 4S. You get a long dash by holding down the dash key until a long dash appears. As far as condescension, look in the mirror. I have not experienced much racism myself, but my friends and students certainly have. The conversation was getting pretty static and I have things to do, so like I said, I'll check back later.

And last point: if Omar Khadr's name had been Thomas O'Connor, he'd have been back on Canadian soil several years ago. That's what I mean by racism.

I'm not reading into anything just reading your posts which have been condescending and insulting to me and others here on ehMac... I am far from being a racist and have actually suffered from the slings and arrows of racism... have you? I find your "academic" approach to the subject less than enlightening and actually quite confrontational and not constructive at all...

Under that faulty premise, Marc Emery would have been repatriated months ago

FreeMarc.ca | Free Marc (http://freemarc.ca/group/freemarcca)

nonsense.

Marc Emery was extradited to the USA. Different circumstances.

I'm not reading into anything just reading your posts which have been condescending and insulting to me and others here on ehMac... I am far from being a racist and have actually suffered from the slings and arrows of racism... have you? I find your "academic" approach to the subject less than enlightening and actually quite confrontational and not constructive at all...

Hoo boy. I am not playing this game today. Sorry if I've hurt your feelings. And anyone else on ehMac that I've somehow inferred is a racist because they may not share my opinion on Omar Khadr and what I feel was a flagrant abuse of his rights as a Canadian citizen. Apologies all round. I also apologize for apparently being too academic, whatever that means.

Removed already covered

Hoo boy. I am not playing this game today. Sorry if I've hurt your feelings. And anyone else on ehMac that I've somehow inferred is a racist because they may not share my opinion on Omar Khadr and what I feel was a flagrant abuse of his rights as a Canadian citizen. Apologies all round. I also apologize for apparently being too academic, whatever that means.

Your apology comes across as being less than sincere but I guess it is better than nothing...

Time to move on.

Hoo boy. I am not playing this game today. Sorry if I've hurt your feelings. And anyone else on ehMac that I've somehow inferred is a racist because they may not share my opinion on Omar Khadr and what I feel was a flagrant abuse of his rights as a Canadian citizen. Apologies all round. I also apologize for apparently being too academic, whatever that means.

LOL, keep on trucking...

BTW, what are our charter rights under war in a foreign country? Especially if he's on the "other" side ---are we not still involved there? Treason rings a bell for some reason. It's not like this guy was a tourist found spitting on the sidewalk in Singapore and we need to save him from the lash.

LOL, keep on trucking...

BTW, what are our charter rights under war in a foreign country? Especially if he's on the "other" side ---are we not still involved there? Treason rings a bell for some reason. It's not like this guy was a tourist found spitting on the sidewalk in Singapore and we need to save him from the lash.

Exactly. Some people seem to see these as cases equivalent to the one you describe.

And I still want to know how a guy named Marc Emery can be stuck in a U.S. prison for mailing out cannabis seeds from Canada, if our system supposedly favours white males with western sounding names.

Exactly. Some people seem to see these as cases equivalent to the one you describe.

And I still want to know how a guy named Marc Emery can be stuck in a U.S. prison for mailing out cannabis seeds from Canada, if our system supposedly favours white males with western sounding names.

He got caught because he was stupid and antagonizing the Americans .
Had an ego the size of Canada.
I met the guy once at Idea City / TED and he came with a carry on full of weed and joints - which he gave away as free samples.
What's the saying sooner or later the dog will bite if you keep agrivating it.

He got caught because he was stupid and antagonizing the Americans .
Had an ego the size of Canada.
I met the guy once at Idea City / TED and he came with a carry on full of weed and joints - which he gave away as free samples.
What's the saying sooner or later the dog will bite if you keep agrivating it.

Not to mention the fact that he was extradited to the US to face the charges.

But don't let these sorts of differences get in the way of anything. ;)

Not to mention the fact that he was extradited to the US to face the charges.

But don't let these sorts of differences get in the way of anything. ;)

Same thing happened to him in Thailand but he left before they caught him because prisons are nicer here :-)

He got caught because he was stupid and antagonizing the Americans .
Had an ego the size of Canada.
I met the guy once at Idea City / TED and he came with a carry on full of weed and joints - which he gave away as free samples.
What's the saying sooner or later the dog will bite if you keep agrivating it.

For sure he was antagonizing them. However, fjn believed that racism was at play in the Khadr case, and anyone with a western sounding name would be brought home to serve time in Canada in a heartbeat. That Emery is still in a U.S. prison is proof that he is wrong.

LOL, keep on trucking...

BTW, what are our charter rights under war in a foreign country? Especially if he's on the "other" side ---are we not still involved there? Treason rings a bell for some reason. It's not like this guy was a tourist found spitting on the sidewalk in Singapore and we need to save him from the lash.

It is not treason unless you were to kill a soldier from your OWN country; Khadr is Canadian, not American. Canadian civilians do not swear allegiance to the American flag. True, this is a pretty bizarre situation and rare in international law, but there are some indisputable facts: he was 15 at the time, and the building he was in was under attack by US troops. It's not like US soldiers don't accidentally kill civilians sometimes, especially foreign ones. Canada's first four soldier deaths in Afhhanistan were from "friendly" American fire.

Anyway, the main point is that the boy pleaded guilty (which I am not convinced he actually is yet) in exchange for being able to serve the rest of his sentence in a Canadian prison. The Canadian Supreme Court has already determined that his rights were violated and he should be brought home to Canada (again, born in Toronto), and his "confession" was obtained using torture—inadmissible in any Canadian or American court save for the military court in Guatanamo Bay in Cuba. And Barack Obama wants Jim back in Canada too, as the youngest Gitmo prisoner and only Westerner left there. So what is Harper's government (the gov't in power, which happens to be Conservative) waiting for? All of the footwork has already been completed—why the delay?

For sure he was antagonizing them. However, fjn believed that racism was at play in the Khadr case, and anyone with a western sounding name would be brought home to serve time in Canada in a heartbeat. That Emery is still in a U.S. prison is proof that he is wrong.

if people stop living under rocks and realize that Canada can't keep coming to help criminals when ever they are in trouble we will be fine.. especially ones that lobby explosives at allied troops. [ his family is a terrorist group to start with. ] To bad he wasn't arrested by some other country which has much nicer prisons. LOL [ Please note the sarcasm. ] - gitmo is a resort by any standard of living..

Seriously.. it has nothing to do with race, wish people understand that..

Mark Emery was poking the sleeping tiger in every country until he woke one and he got what was coming to him.

It is not treason unless you were to kill a soldier from your OWN country; Khadr is Canadian, not American. Canadian civilians do not swear allegiance to the American flag. True, this is a pretty bizarre situation and rare in international law, but there are some indisputable facts: he was 15 at the time, and the building he was in was under attack by US troops. It's not like US soldiers don't accidentally kill civilians sometimes, especially foreign ones. Canada's first four soldier deaths in Afhhanistan were from "friendly" American fire.

Anyway, the main point is that the boy pleaded guilty (which I am not convinced he actually is yet) in exchange for being able to serve the rest of his sentence in a Canadian prison. The Canadian Supreme Court has already determined that his rights were violated and he should be brought home to Canada (again, born in Toronto), and his "confession" was obtained using torture—inadmissible in any Canadian or American court save for the military court in Guatanamo Bay in Cuba. And Barack Obama wants Jim back in Canada too, as the youngest Gitmo prisoner and only Westerner left there. So what is Harper's government (the gov't in power, which happens to be Conservative) waiting for? All of the footwork has already been completed—why the delay?

Killing an allied soldier in the same war in which your country is involved in is definitely treason.

It is not treason unless you were to kill a soldier from your OWN country; Khadr is Canadian, not American. Canadian civilians do not swear allegiance to the American flag. True, this is a pretty bizarre situation and rare in international law, but there are some indisputable facts: he was 15 at the time, and the building he was in was under attack by US troops. It's not like US soldiers don't accidentally kill civilians sometimes, especially foreign ones. Canada's first four soldier deaths in Afhhanistan were from "friendly" American fire.

Anyway, the main point is that the boy pleaded guilty (which I am not convinced he actually is yet) in exchange for being able to serve the rest of his sentence in a Canadian prison. The Canadian Supreme Court has already determined that his rights were violated and he should be brought home to Canada (again, born in Toronto), and his "confession" was obtained using torture—inadmissible in any Canadian or American court save for the military court in Guatanamo Bay in Cuba. And Barack Obama wants Jim back in Canada too, as the youngest Gitmo prisoner and only Westerner left there. So what is Harper's government (the gov't in power, which happens to be Conservative) waiting for? All of the footwork has already been completed—why the delay?

Hmm not so sure about this... it was a NATO allied force and he killed one of our allies, may not be expressly treason by the letter of the law but pretty damn close to it.

As I have already agreed many times becuase of the SC ruling he should be brought "home" (although I highly doubt he truly regards Canada as home) and will be I suspect at some time. Of course Obama wants him sent home, better we pay his prison bills than them...

On our government's front I have already told you, it is a political issue and that many of the conservative government's supporters don't want him here so the government is delaying as long as they can to appease that constituency... that is why they are dragging their feet. It's politics my friend and if the government can continue to delay based on technicalities they are going to do so for as long as they can.

On another front with our system he would likely be out on parole in very short order and I think the government has legitimate concerns regarding what that may mean for the morale of hidden terrorists and their cells in this country. They would rather not have him speaking freely about his incarceration and his anti-western propaganda, i.e. stirring the pot.

Hmm not so sure about this... it was a NATO allied force and he killed one of our allies, may not be expressly treason by the letter of the law but pretty damn close to it.

As I have already agreed many times becuase of the SC ruling he should be brought "home" (although I highly doubt he truly regards Canada as home) and will be I suspect at some time. Of course Obama wants him sent home, better we pay his prison bills than them...

On our government's front I have already told you, it is a political issue and that many of the conservative government's supporters don't want him here so the government is delaying as long as they can to appease that constituency... that is why they are dragging their feet. It's politics my friend and if the government can continue to delay based on technicalities they are going to do so for as long as they can.

On another front with our system he would likely be out on parole in very short order and I think the government has legitimate concerns regarding what that may mean for the morale of hidden terrorists and their cells in this country. They would rather not have him speaking freely about his incarceration and his anti-western propaganda, i.e. stirring the pot.

If we delay long enough he'll be finished his sentence and he'll be a free man when he comes to Canada. And given the support he's received so far, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he has some less than friendly views about his country of origin. Way too many people see only the punishment aspect of being sentenced to prison and forget all about the rehabilitation side. We do this at our own peril.

If we delay long enough he'll be finished his sentence and he'll be a free man when he comes to Canada. And given the support he's received so far, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he has some less than friendly views about his country of origin. Way too many people see only the punishment aspect of being sentenced to prison and forget all about the rehabilitation side. We do this at our own peril.

Why should he receive any support? And why would we expect this guy to have friendly views about this country at all? He wants to be free--end of story.

Why should he receive any support? And why would we expect this guy to have friendly views about this country at all? He wants to be free--end of story.

I get the distinct impression that you really know very little about "this guy", MF.

I don't think his views (or the views of his family, for that matter) have changed since prior to the Afghan situation. Ether way, bad news all around.

If we delay long enough he'll be finished his sentence and he'll be a free man when he comes to Canada. And given the support he's received so far, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he has some less than friendly views about his country of origin. Way too many people see only the punishment aspect of being sentenced to prison and forget all about the rehabilitation side. We do this at our own peril.

He is clearly beyond "rehabilitation" and has been so since he was a boy, his father made sure of that...

We let him out at our own peril but we have no choice.

I get the distinct impression that you really know very little about "this guy", MF.

Probably about as much as you fjnmusic as you both only get your information from the media... more condescension fjnmusic... seems you aren't so sorry afterall.

He is clearly beyond "rehabilitation" and has been so since he was a boy, his father made sure of that...


how do you know that?

Probably about as much as you fjnmusic as you both only get your information from the media... more condescension fjnmusic... seems you aren't so sorry afterall.

Again, check the mirror if you're looking for condescension, Screature. Stop being so preachy. The only entity that I suggested is racist is the Canadian government and I make no apology for that. Where do you get your information from if not the media? And is it possible that the son may not believe his father's views? Do you believe everything exactly the same as your father? Should people automatically be punished for what their parents believe? That's a pretty flawed system of justice.

how do you know that?

Let's just call it a fairly good guess... sorry to be accurate I should have said IMO he is clearly beyond rehabilitation. Maybe you or fjnmusic would like to take him into your home or community and give it a shot.

Let's just call it a fairly good guess...

nah. lets just call it "a guess".

Again, check the mirror if you're looking for condescension, Screature. Stop being so preachy. The only entity that I suggested is racist is the Canadian government and I make no apology for that. Where do you get your information from if not the media? And is it possible that the son may not believe his father's views? Do you believe everything exactly the same as your father? Should people automatically be punished for what their parents believe? That's a pretty flawed system of justice.

:lmao: Read your own posts fjnmusic if you want to know why I am being "preachy"... you accused others here of being racists, not only the government....

...I am only sure that this subject exposes a great deal of hypocrisy and racism on this forum.

and then me directly...

Wow really...? Who ever said anything that would lead you to believe that?? The common reason that has been expressed is that he is a murder, potentialy a terrorist and has family ties to Al Qaeda. Who ever said anything along the lines of "Let the rat bastard Arab rot in jail"... or some such???... No one.

IMO your statement "this subject exposes a great deal of hypocrisy and racism on this forum" is completely unfounded and presumptuous in the extreme.

Well…you just said it.

No condescension, no calling others here racists on my part. YOU were the only one doing that!

Of course we all get our information on this issue from the media but time and again you have made comments like you have some inside track or greater understanding or more information than the rest of us. I stand by my post.

If he didn't agree with his father or didn't accept his brainwashing he wouldn't have been in Afghanistan in the first place... he isn't being punished for his father's beliefs he is being punished for his actions.

nah. lets just call it "a guess".

IMO let's call any suggestion to the contrary to be naive.

Let's just call it a fairly good guess... sorry to be accurate I should have said IMO he is clearly beyond rehabilitation. Maybe you or fjnmusic would like to take him into your home or community and give it a shot.

What is your problem? Look who needs to apologize for getting personal now. He has several years left to go on his sentence, which is going to be served in a prison. Why are you so opposed to that happening in a Canadian prison, which was one of the reasons he chose to plead guilty in the first place?

Two very different psych assessments on Omar Khadr. What do you believe?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/07/16/omar-khadr-psychiatrists-review.html

What is your problem? Look who needs to apologize for getting personal now. He has several years left to go on his sentence, which is going to be served in a prison. Why are you so opposed to that happening in a Canadian prison, which was one of the reasons he chose to plead guilty in the first place?

Not in the least bit personal... did I call you a racist did I call you anything? If you can't tell when someone is being facetious I apologize for that.

I never said I am opposed to him being brought back to serve out his time in Canada, not once, check the record. In fact I have said the opposite. You just want to argue with anyone who doesn't see the guy as being some sort of victim.

Two very different psych assessments on Omar Khadr. What do you believe?

Omar Khadr: Peace-loving Canadian or al-Qaeda royalty? - World - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/07/16/omar-khadr-psychiatrists-review.html)

Both in terms of the psychiatrists. I think they both believe their analysis to be correct.

However, Xenakis testimony is purely based on his interviews and doesn't bring any other evidence to bear on the matter whereas Welner brought much more research and other evidence to bear for consideration for his final analysis.

I have no idea who is actually correct, but I have my suspicions.

Both in terms of the psychiatrists. I think they both believe their analysis to be correct.

However, Xenakis testimony is purely based on his interviews and doesn't bring any other evidence to bear on the matter whereas Welner brought much more research and other evidence to bear for consideration for his final analysis.

I have no idea who is actually correct, but I have my suspicions.

It's also possible you can develop more empathy for someone over 200 hours than you can over 7 hours. Especially if you consider the 300 hours Welner spent finding good reasons not to be empathetic. What I am suggesting is that it is far more difficult to look another person in the eye and maintain that intense hatred than it is from a distance. And pretty much everyone here including myself and all of the non-empathetic people I read about in the letters columns of the newspaper can sit pretty high and mighty and judge this person without knowing him at all.

It's also possible you can develop more empathy for someone over 200 hours than you can over 7 hours. Especially if you consider the 300 hours Welner spent finding good reasons not to be empathetic. What I am suggesting is that it is far more difficult to look another person in the eye and maintain that intense hatred than it is from a distance. And pretty much everyone here including myself and all of the non-empathetic people I read about in the letters columns of the newspaper can sit pretty high and mighty and judge this person without knowing him at all.

Which proves what? Even kidnap victims and hostages may suffer from Stockholm Syndrome when they're being violated by their captors.

Does meeting someone in person change your opinion of the facts? It doesn't change mine. I may find a murderer to be an engaging murderer--but still a murderer.

It's also possible you can develop more empathy for someone over 200 hours than you can over 7 hours. Especially if you consider the 300 hours Welner spent finding good reasons not to be empathetic. What I am suggesting is that it is far more difficult to look another person in the eye and maintain that intense hatred than it is from a distance. And pretty much everyone here including myself and all of the non-empathetic people I read about in the letters columns of the newspaper can sit pretty high and mighty and judge this person without knowing him at all.

As a neutral 3rd party he isn't supposed to become empathetic with the accused... your defence of your position actually diminishes the value of the testimony of Dr. Xenakis.

Welner spent 300 hours analyzing the collected evidence yes... it is the responsibility of any prosecutor (or those hired by the prosecution) doing his job to look at ALL the evidence. It is also the responsibility of any prosecutor to dismiss (or recommend dismissal) if their is insufficient evidence.

Based on the evidence presented in the article alone I find Welner's analysis much more compelling than Dr. Xenakis' who by your own admission, could have become much more empathetic towards Khadr, thus clouding his judgment.

Not to mention he is a retired brigadier general and army medical corps officer with 28 years of active service and now belongs to Physicians For Human Rights...

On the face of it it seems there may be a certain bone to pick there.... You don't get to be a general without having gone along with and believed in the military's way of doing things unless you are a complete hypocrite for 28 years....

Then you retire and suddenly have an epiphany... "I was all wrong. I was Saul, I am now Paul..."

Sorry it seems more likely he got bypassed for a promotion or something and now it is "pay back time"....

Welner's analysis certainly is compelling. As a forensic psychiatrist, he was also witness for the prosecution, while Xenakis was a witness for the defense, although his testimony was not used. The purpose of each person's information gathering was very different, considering whom each was summoned by. However, most of Welner's conclusions, while thorough and well-argued, come from people other than Khadr himself, to the tune of about a 300:19 hours ratio a he states. He cannot really claim to know Khadr better than the other man, who spent 200 hours I interviewing him directly.

I do not doubt that Khadr today can be manipulative and has become the poster child for Al-Qaeda, or that he has dangerous connections, or that he is a different man now after ten years of incarceration. But the fact remains he should be transferred to a Canadian prison where he can lose the hero status he currently has among other prisoners at Gitmo and deprogrammed and persuaded to learn to love Canada again so that perhaps he can actually be reformed when he is released in about six years. I would rather he emerge as someone who is grateful for what Canada has done for him rehabilitation-wise. Either way, we will get the man we deserve.

ut the fact remains he should be transferred to a Canadian prison where he can lose the hero status he currently has among other prisoners at Gitmo and deprogrammed and persuaded to learn to love Canada again so that perhaps he can actually be reformed when he is released in about six years. I would rather he emerge as someone who is grateful for what Canada has done for him rehabilitation-wise.

I can almost see the dancing unicorns as I read this...

of course the alternatives have been proven to be so much successful.

LOL

I can almost see the dancing unicorns as I read this...

Speaking of condescension. You do realize that Khadr will be coming back to Canada sooner or later, don't you? Would you rather he be afforded the opportunity to make more allies in Gitmo or that he be separated from them before he returns to Canada?

Speaking of condescension. You do realize that Khadr will be coming back to Canada sooner or later, don't you? Would you rather he be afforded the opportunity to make more allies in Gitmo or that he be separated from them before he returns to Canada?

He might be coming back to Canada. It would be presumptuous of me to assume that he is definitely making his home here. I really don't care whether he makes his allies in Gitmo or a Canadian prison--if I accept your premise that he has currently made allies in Gitmo and wants to make more..

He might be coming back to Canada. It would be presumptuous of me to assume that he is definitely making his home here. I really don't care whether he makes his allies in Gitmo or a Canadian prison--if I accept your premise that he has currently made allies in Gitmo and wants to make more..

According to that article I referenced on the previous page, he is the poster child for al-Qaeda at Gitmo. It would be a good idea to remove him from the posse unless we want him to become a terrorist, which I do not believe he has become yet. It would require some effort and leadership on Canada's part to reform Mr. Khadr, neither of which we appear to have at thus time.

According to that article I referenced on the previous page, he is the poster child for al-Qaeda at Gitmo. It would be a good idea to remove him from the posse unless we want him to become a terrorist, which I do not believe he has become yet. It would require some effort and leadership on Canada's part to reform Mr. Khadr, neither of which we appear to have at thus time.

Sorry, but I find this incredible.

"It would be a good idea to remove him from the posse unless we want him to become a terrorist, which I do not believe he has become yet."

He already IS a convicted terrorist. Reformed in our prison system? Good luck with that!

He already IS a convicted terrorist.

I'm saddened that people whom I believe to have some integrity would give such credence to a U.S. military court that lacks any sort of validity, in courts and laws that were concocted for the situation within a climate of unreasonable paranoia and fear.

As for "convicted" - he confessed to the crime as part of a deal to get the hell out of Guantanamo Bay prison and return to Canada, a deal that the Canadian government has yet to honour.

As for "convicted" - he confessed to the crime as part of a deal to get the hell out of Guantanamo Bay prison and return to Canada, a deal that the Canadian government has yet to honour.

whoa Mark? Do you mean that you don't think he's guilty of the crimes? Whether or not he's been convicted, he did it.

He killed a medic.

I'm saddened that people whom I believe to have some integrity would give such credence to a U.S. military court that lacks any sort of validity, in courts and laws that were concocted for the situation within a climate of unreasonable paranoia and fear.

As for "convicted" - he confessed to the crime as part of a deal to get the hell out of Guantanamo Bay prison and return to Canada, a deal that the Canadian government has yet to honour.

^

Pretty much convinces me. Any person of integrity would never confess.

so no one has ever confessed in a deal, coercion, etc to something they never did?

I find that pretty hard to believe.

whoa Mark? Do you mean that you don't think he's guilty of the crimes? Whether or not he's been convicted, he did it.

He killed a medic.

^

Pretty much sums it up.

whoa Mark? Do you mean that you don't think he's guilty of the crimes? Whether or not he's been convicted, he did it.

He killed a medic.

Keebler, you should go back and re-read the information surrounding this case. There is considerable doubt that he was the one who threw the grenade (no-one saw him do it). He was there, yes, but the legality of his detention is a huge question. And if he *did* kill the medic, was he unjustified in doing so? He was with a group that was under attack by U.S. forces, and they were fighting back - was he supposed to not fight for his life?

The entire scenario is not as black-and-white as many have painted it.

Ultimately, and this is the core of my position, Khadr was a child soldier whose rights were violated and continue to be violated.

keebler, you should go back and re-read the information surrounding this case. There is considerable doubt that he was the one who threw the grenade (no-one saw him do it). He was there, yes, but the legality of his detention is a huge question. And if he *did* kill the medic, was he unjustified in doing so? He was with a group that was under attack by u.s. Forces, and they were fighting back - was he supposed to not fight for his life?

The entire scenario is not as black-and-white as many have painted it.

Ultimately, and this is the core of my position, khadr was a child soldier whose rights were violated and continue to be violated.

+1.

Everyone seems to agree he had a proper upbringing with normal values. I knew right from wrong long before 14 and certainly at 15 understood that to take a life is wrong. Sorry, but the child soldier bit doesn't cut any ice with me. He made a choice. End of story.

Keebler, you should go back and re-read the information surrounding this case. There is considerable doubt that he was the one who threw the grenade (no-one saw him do it). He was there, yes, but the legality of his detention is a huge question. And if he *did* kill the medic, was he unjustified in doing so? He was with a group that was under attack by U.S. forces, and they were fighting back - was he supposed to not fight for his life?

The entire scenario is not as black-and-white as many have painted it.

Ultimately, and this is the core of my position, Khadr was a child soldier whose rights were violated and continue to be violated.

50 shades of grey... but never guilt.

Sorry, but the child soldier bit doesn't cut any ice with me. He made a choice. End of story.

Not the end of story. "Everyone" - I believe you're overreaching here. And while it may not "cut any ice" with you, we have international agreements governing the treatment of child soldiers, who are victims, to which Canada is a signatory. You may not like it, but that's the reality.

Not the end of story. "Everyone" - I believe you're overreaching here. And while it may not "cut any ice" with you, we have international agreements governing the treatment of child soldiers, who are victims, to which Canada is a signatory. You may not like it, but that's the reality.

Thank you for bringing some perspective to what I was feeling was a hopeless argument. I was disappointed when he pleaded guilty, actually, because there were several mitigating circumstances, self-defense against attackers among them. I also remember that given the military tribunal he was up against, his best bet was to plead guilty and serve the remainder of his sentence in a Canadian prison. Looks that choice backfired, mainly due to the lack of honour among Canadian defense ministers.

(and here comes the objections to my use of the word honour…)

Not the end of story. "Everyone" - I believe you're overreaching here. And while it may not "cut any ice" with you, we have international agreements governing the treatment of child soldiers, who are victims, to which Canada is a signatory. You may not like it, but that's the reality.

That agreement (the Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child on the involvement of children in armed conflict) covers the signatories' responsibilities to refuse to conscript individuals under the age of 18 involuntarily into the armed forces of the signatory.

You are wrong about its meaning. You may not like it, but that's the reality.

Thank you for bringing some perspective to what I was feeling was a hopeless argument. I was disappointed when he pleaded guilty, actually, because there were several mitigating circumstances, self-defense against attackers among them. I also remember that given the military tribunal he was up against, his best bet was to plead guilty and serve the remainder of his sentence in a Canadian prison. Looks that choice backfired, mainly due to the lack of honour among Canadian defense ministers.

(and here comes the objections to my use of the word honour…)

so what of the objections? Of course they'll object.

It's highly hypocritical for us to have the view we do of child soldiers in other countries, but when one of our own is involved, suddenly the tune changes. That certainly doesn't "cut any ice me" either.

So you're right. If he pleaded guilty with the promise of serving his sentence here, then this government should stand by it's word and do the right thing.

But even screature admitted to what this is. It's merely political. The far right base simply won't stand for taking him here, and Harper and crew are too afraid to stand up to them and stand by their word. Simple as that.

Keebler, you should go back and re-read the information surrounding this case. There is considerable doubt that he was the one who threw the grenade (no-one saw him do it). He was there, yes, but the legality of his detention is a huge question. And if he *did* kill the medic, was he unjustified in doing so? He was with a group that was under attack by U.S. forces, and they were fighting back - was he supposed to not fight for his life?

The entire scenario is not as black-and-white as many have painted it.

Ultimately, and this is the core of my position, Khadr was a child soldier whose rights were violated and continue to be violated.

Unfortunately, I think the reality is that any document I could read, probably isn't as black and white as the incident unfolded in real life ie. will we ever know the truth?

I realize you folks just know me from this board, but I'm telling you, I " know " the allegations against him and his family having ties to terrorists are real. Not fabricated. Not a lie in any shape or form. I wish I could say more, but I can't. You'll just have to trust me on a wing and a prayer. Classic case of not revealing a source and a large reason why I've mostly stayed out of this b/c I'm biting at the lip to say more! lol

As for him tossing a grenade to save his life - perhaps that's true in a raw sense from the middle of a battle/skirmist, but it begs the question of how or why he was there. He may have been a teenager pressured or forced to be there by his family, but then that begs - what was his family doing there? Up to no good is what they were doing.

If his family wasn't there, what were they doing sending him there then? How did he get there? There's a link somewhere between where he lived and people he knows.... right?

Again, I think it's right for Toews to ask for the interview details. Who knows what was said. I don't understand how any of that should be kept away from our government. Maybe he's a changed person (I personally doubt it) but I'd sure like to know what he was like when they first got him and later.

Cheers,
Keebler

But even screature admitted to what this is. It's merely political. The far right base simply won't stand for taking him here, and Harper and crew are too afraid to stand up to them and stand by their word. Simple as that.

No, the Harper government lost the legal battle. The Supreme Court has ruled that Khadr's Charter Rights are being violated. The government either takes him back or continues to violate his rights.

This has nothing to do with their word... they have been actively fighting not to repatriate him and are now stuck. So they are taking their time about it.

(The Supreme Court stopped short of ordering the government to take him back, as it is not clear as to whether or not the Supreme Court has that authority or not.)

I realize you folks just know me from this board, but I'm telling you, I " know " the allegations against him and his family having ties to terrorists are real. Not fabricated. Not a lie in any shape or form. I wish I could say more, but I can't. You'll just have to trust me on a wing and a prayer. Classic case of not revealing a source and a large reason why I've mostly stayed out of this b/c I'm biting at the lip to say more! lol

i don't think anyone is questioning that. it's pretty common knowledge. but it's also an entirely different issue.

Not the end of story. "Everyone" - I believe you're overreaching here. And while it may not "cut any ice" with you, we have international agreements governing the treatment of child soldiers, who are victims, to which Canada is a signatory. You may not like it, but that's the reality.

I do find it ironic that so many of the "Letter of the Law" types want to over look the law. Perhaps because they don't like the guy. Perhaps because they really have bought into the Boogey Man that various recent Governments have been pimping in order to erode the Bill of Rights.

I do find it ironic that so many of the "Letter of the Law" types want to over look the law. Perhaps because they don't like the guy.

Most of us here believe he should repatriated because of the rule of law. However, we also aren't going to be rolling out the welcome mat when he arrives.

No, the Harper government lost the legal battle. The Supreme Court has ruled that Khadr's Charter Rights are being violated. The government either takes him back or continues to violate his rights.

This has nothing to do with their word... they have been actively fighting not to repatriate him and are now stuck. So they are taking their time about it.

(The Supreme Court stopped short of ordering the government to take him back, as it is not clear as to whether or not the Supreme Court has that authority or not.)

In other words, the Harper government is breaking the law, since the Supreme Court decides the law, especially for contentious issues. And I always understood that bad guys who break the law could go to prison. Ha! beejacon

I don't think anyone is going to be rolling out the welcome mat anytime soon. Let's get back on track.

In other words, the Harper government is breaking the law, since the Supreme Court decides the law, especially for contentious issues. And I always understood that bad guys who break the law could go to prison. Ha! beejacon

Not sure if they are breaking the law, but they are violating his rights by ignoring the supreme court's decision. But this government is more interested in it's own agenda and dislikes being told what to do.

In other words, the Harper government is breaking the law, since the Supreme Court decides the law, especially for contentious issues. And I always understood that bad guys who break the law could go to prison. Ha! beejacon

What is the timeline for compliance?

What is the timeline for compliance?

Good question. If there are no consequences for non-compliance then I think the Harper government was planning on "indefinitely."

Good question. If there are no consequences for non-compliance then I think the Harper government was planning on "indefinitely."

The Supreme Court did not order the Federal Government to comply--that is apparently a bit of a sticky legal question as to whether or not they can do that, and they got around that issue by not going there.

The Supreme Court simply ruled that not repatriating Khadr violates his Charter Rights.

So there's no timeline and no direct consequences here.

However, it still bothers me that the Federal Government, knowing they are violating Khadr's Charter Rights, continues to drag their feet in putting this violation of the Charter right.

That other similar nations (the UK, France, etc.) have repatriated their citizens from Gitmo already simply puts us in an embarrassing situation.

The Supreme Court did not order the Federal Government to comply--that is apparently a bit of a sticky legal question as to whether or not they can do that, and they got around that issue by not going there.

The Supreme Court simply ruled that not repatriating Khadr violates his Charter Rights.

So there's no timeline and no direct consequences here.

However, it still bothers me that the Federal Government, knowing they are violating Khadr's Charter Rights, continues to drag their feet in putting this violation of the Charter right.

That other similar nations (the UK, France, etc.) have repatriated their citizens from Gitmo already simply puts us in an embarrassing situation.

If nothing else, it just gives Mr. Khadr all the more reason to become a terrorist. I don't understand why gov'ts can't look at the long term consequences of their actions. Or non-actions in this case.

If nothing else, it just gives Mr. Khadr all the more reason to become a terrorist.

If nothing else, it gives Mr. Khadr an excellent case for a civil suit against the federal government. He'll be a millionaire when he gets out of prison.

of course the conservative cheerleaders will go on about how delaying his return saves us money on his incarceration, ignoring the $millions$ the Harper government has spent fighting his charter rights, and the inevitable pay off for that violation of those charter rights.

but you know, the Harper government are sound fiscal managers so i'm sure it's ok.

If nothing else, it gives Mr. Khadr an excellent case for a civil suit against the federal government. He'll be a millionaire when he gets out of prison.

of course the conservative cheerleaders will go on about how delaying his return saves us money on his incarceration, ignoring the $millions$ the Harper government has spent fighting his charter rights, and the inevitable pay off for that violation of those charter rights.

but you know, the Harper government are sound fiscal managers so i'm sure it's ok.

That's just it. As I said, I don't think anyone is overjoyed at bringing him here. But, violating his rights can and will likely have repercussions that can as you said, end up costing us millions if not already with the legal battles so far.

If nothing else, it just gives Mr. Khadr all the more reason to become a terrorist. I don't understand why gov'ts can't look at the long term consequences of their actions. Or non-actions in this case.

Ah, now you are beginning to get it. ;)

Ah, now you are beginning to get it. ;)

So do you think we should continue to violate his rights by refusing to repatriate him, or bring him here and at least pull him away from the rest if the al-Qaeda gang? I have found in my own experience that once away from the gang, the gang member must relearn the social pecking order. Therein lies your best chance at rehabilitation. He was a kid when he came to Gitmo, but there's been a lot of years and unsavory influence since then, not to mention a huge mistrust of authority.

So do you think we should continue to violate his rights by refusing to repatriate him, or bring him here and at least pull him away from the rest if the al-Qaeda gang? I have found in my own experience that once away from the gang, the gang member must relearn the social pecking order. Therein lies your best chance at rehabilitation. He was a kid when he came to Gitmo, but there's been a lot of years and unsavory influence since then, not to mention a huge mistrust of authority.

thought all of the people left in Gitmo were supposed to be innocent? Or is Khadr the only innocent there, in your humble opinion?

Canadian defence minister's Iranian born spouse says: "Welcome back Khadr!"

MacKay?s activist wife calls for Ottawa to bring back Omar Khadr - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/mackays-activist-wife-calls-for-ottawa-to-bring-back-omar-khadr/article4441717/)

He may be a traitor to progressive conservatism but he has a nice spouse.

thought all of the people left in Gitmo were supposed to be innocent? Or is Khadr the only innocent there, in your humble opinion?

Where on earth did you get that idea? We were talking about Khadr, not every prisoner in Gitmo.

If nothing else, it gives Mr. Khadr an excellent case for a civil suit against the federal government. He'll be a millionaire when he gets out of prison.

of course the conservative cheerleaders will go on about how delaying his return saves us money on his incarceration, ignoring the $millions$ the Harper government has spent fighting his charter rights, and the inevitable pay off for that violation of those charter rights.

but you know, the Harper government are sound fiscal managers so i'm sure it's ok.

If the Supreme Court can't order the government to comply what makes you think that he would have any grounds for a civil suit? What exactly would he being suing them for? He is an admitted murder.

I think your estimation that he will be a millionaire has no foundation in law or in precedent.

Canadian defence minister's Iranian born spouse says: "Welcome back Khadr!"

MacKay?s activist wife calls for Ottawa to bring back Omar Khadr - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/mackays-activist-wife-calls-for-ottawa-to-bring-back-omar-khadr/article4441717/)

He may be a traitor to progressive conservatism but he has a nice spouse.

'The Defence Minister's Wife' responds to Guardian story

I have a name you know (http://www.facebook.com/notes/nazanin-afshin-jam/i-have-a-name-you-know/10150968539888253)

This afternoon while here in PEI I was asked to come to the Guardian offices to sit down and do an interview about my new book The Tale of Two Nazanins; but instead the journalist Jim Day did not ask me a single question about the book and made an obvious effort to draw me into a discussion criticising the government. When responding I specifically qualified that what I said was my personal view. I am very disappointed that once again my personal view has been distorted. After I expressly and emphatically told him numerous times that I was tired seeing my name continually left out of interviews and referred to as "The Defence Minister's wife"...this is exactly what he chose to do. As a result of today's experience I am extremely disappointed with the Guardian and I will think twice before speaking to them again. I am confident that Mr. Khadr will be transferred back to Canada. Let's leave it to the Canadian and US governments who have all the facts and details about the case to take the proper actions in due course.

Signed,

Nazanin Afshin-Jam MacKay

International Human Rights Activist

President and Co-Founder of Stop Child Executions

If the Supreme Court can't order the government to comply what makes you think that he would have any grounds for a civil suit? What exactly would he being suing them for? He is an admitted murder.


his lawyers already filed a $10 million dollar civil suit in 2010. The SC has already ruled the government violated his charter rights.


I think your estimation that he will be a millionaire has no foundation in law or in precedent.

precedent has already been set :

Ottawa reaches $10M settlement with Arar - Canada - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2007/01/25/arar-harper.html)

his lawyers already filed a $10 million dollar civil suit in 2010.



precedent has already been set :

Ottawa reaches $10M settlement with Arar - Canada - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2007/01/25/arar-harper.html)

The Arar case is no precedent at all he was deported to Syria and was innocent of any wrong doing... Kahdr is a confessed murder, huge difference.

However maybe if he does get the $10M maybe he can use it to help pay for the civil suit against the estate of his father already won in the US:

Sgt. Layne Morris and Sgt. Speer's widow Tabitha, both represented by Donald Winder,[185] filed a civil suit against the estate of Ahmed Khadr – claiming that the father's failure to control his son resulted in the loss of Speers' life and Morris' right eye. Since American law doesn't allow civil lawsuits against "acts of war", Speer and Morris relied on the argument that throwing the grenade was an act of terrorism, rather than war. In February 2006, Utah District Court Judge Paul Cassell awarded the plaintiffs $102.6 million in damages, approximately $94 million to Speer and $8 million to Morris,[186] in what he said likely marks the first time terrorist acts have resulted in civil liabilities.[187] It has been suggested that the plaintiffs might collect funds via the U.S. Terrorism Risk Insurance Act,[188] but since the Federal government is not bound by civil rulings, it has refused to release Khadr's frozen assets.[189] Morris is expected to testify at Khadr's trial in Guantanamo.[190]
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khadr)

Where on earth did you get that idea? We were talking about Khadr, not every prisoner in Gitmo.

I see. So Gitmo prisoners are terrorists, except for Khadr?

I see. So Gitmo prisoners are terrorists, except for Khadr?

I think you misuse the word terrorist. When I hear the word, I think of repeated acts meant to terrorize many people, to have them live in fear of when the next pipe bomb might go off, to live in a state if perpetual fear of who might get killed next. A state of fear like the Afghanistan and Iraq population must live in each day because they are not sure who the Occupiers might kill next. A one-off murder does not a terrorist make, especially since this particular death by a grenade appears to fall into a category of its own.

Remember, our soldiers kill with impunity during wartime, and often are well-decorated for doing so. By your definition, that would make them terrorists to the other side. Or does the word terrorist apply only to people you don't like?

The Arar case is no precedent at all he was deported to Syria and was innocent of any wrong doing... Kahdr is a confessed murder, huge difference.


the Arar case is precedent of the $10 million figure (in response to your suggestion he won't be a millionaire). i'm sure that's why Khadr's lawyers chose that number. There are similarities between cases (both were tortured, both had charter rights violated), and of course there are also differences.

the supreme court has already ruled the government violated Khadr's charter rights. the supreme court has also ruled that citizens can seek damages for charter violations. his civil case will be strong. even stronger the longer the government drags out his repatriation.

From Wikipedia:

Terrorism has been practiced by a broad array of political organizations for furthering their objectives. It has been practiced by both right-wing and left-wing political parties, nationalistic groups, religious groups, revolutionaries, and ruling governments. An abiding characteristic is the indiscriminate use of violence against noncombatants for the purpose of gaining publicity for a group, cause or individual.

Since a soldier is considered a combatant rather than a non-combatant (like a civilian), it is hard to make a case that a 15 year old boy killing a soldier constitutes an act of terrorism, especially since the boy in question was severely injured and near death himself. A much stronger case can be made for self-defense. Terrorism is a loaded word that uninformed people bandy about always to describe the other side, never their own.

The Arar case is no precedent at all he was deported to Syria and was innocent of any wrong doing.

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khadr)

You're wrong. Arar was not deported. He was renditioned out of the United States to be tortured in Syria by the CIA and their buds. Even though Syria was part of the Axis of Evil.

From Wikipedia:



Since a soldier is considered a combatant rather than a non-combatant (like a civilian), it is hard to make a case that a 15 year old boy killing a soldier constitutes an act of terrorism, especially since the boy in question was severely injured and near death himself. A much stronger case can be made for self-defense. Terrorism is a loaded word that uninformed people bandy about always to describe the other side, never their own.

You said he would be likely to become a terrorist if he stayed at Gitmo. I'm asking you if the rest of the people imprisoned there are terrorists.

Interesting page from the Canadian Bar Association about your Charter Rights and what remedies are available if government action violates them.

<i>Charter of Rights and Freedoms</i>: Overview (http://www.cba.org/bc/public_media/rights/230.aspx)

I have only skimmed this, but it does seem like Khadr could sue civilly. Given that the Supreme Court has already ruled that his Charter Rights are being violated, I would think he'd have a pretty good case.

Senator Roméo Dallaire on child soldiers and Khadr:

Omar Khadr didn?t choose a life of terrorism (http://www.ottawacitizen.com/opinion/Omar+Khadr+didn+choose+life+terrorism/6993816/story.html)

I think you misuse the word terrorist. When I hear the word, I think of repeated acts meant to terrorize many people, to have them live in fear of when the next pipe bomb might go off, to live in a state if perpetual fear of who might get killed next.

So then, by your own definition, the perpetrators of 9/11 were not terrorists since they only did it once?

Khadr offered guilty plea long before deal to return home (http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/07/26/pol-cp-khadr-documents-delay.html)

Two years before the plea deal that was supposed to mean his quick exit from Guantanamo Bay, Omar Khadr offered to plead guilty to terrorism charges in Canada in exchange for a relatively lenient sentence and speedy transfer to Canada, documents show.
Kuebler attempted to sell the deal as "advantageous" to the United States, arguing it would avoid a legal fight over the fact that Khadr was 15 years old when he committed the crimes with which he was charged.

"As a former child soldier, Mr. Khadr has a strong legal challenge to the jurisdiction of the military commission," Kuebler wrote.

"It is abundantly clear that Congress did not intend military commissions to exercise jurisdiction over juvenile defendants."
Prosecuting Khadr by military commission was also "inconsistent" with American obligations under the Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child, the lawyer wrote.

Kuebler argued the case against Khadr for throwing a grenade that killed a special forces soldier was "extremely weak." No one witnessed the throwing, and the on-scene commander wrote after the incident that the person responsible had been killed, the lawyer noted.

Like many others, Kuebler also questioned the validity of the charge — murder in violation of the law of war — a crime most legal observers outside the commission process don't recognize.

(CBC.ca (http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/07/26/pol-cp-khadr-documents-delay.html))

You said he would be likely to become a terrorist if he stayed at Gitmo. I'm asking you if the rest of the people imprisoned there are terrorists.

Yes, many of them are. The one single act of violence committed by Khadr does not a terrorist make, but the continued exposure to the other al-Qaeda prisoners at Gitmo very well could. Khadr is the poster boy for these other prisoners because he is well respected and still basically a nice kid despite the murder conviction. Al-Qaeda would live to use him as their front man. The longer he stays at Gitmo, the bigger the risk. I'm surprised you hadn't figured this out already.