I was thinking of posting this in the American Politics thread, but it seems like a separate topic.

As many of us will probably be aware, the Creationists have suffered a few set backs over the past few decades, and reality-based curriculums have taken hold in science classrooms throughout the developed world. Undaunted, the Creationists repackaged their fairy tales as "Intelligent Design" theory, and tried to get it back into the science classrooms. When this failed, they redoubled their efforts, and set to on writing legislation replete with obfuscating language about "academic freedom", which they fed to pliable politicians (who they've kept on a steady diet of massive campaign support), and they've now succeeded in two of the bible belt states - Louisiana (http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2008/06/louisiana-passes-first-antievolution-academic-freedom-law.ars) and Tennessee ("http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2012/03/teach-the-controversy-science-education-bills-advance-in-tennessee-oklahoma.ars) - with a third poised to crumble into the anti-intellectual abyss any minute.

So, after having suffered abject failures in their attempts to make a legitimate case, and subsequently having tried to suborn the legal system, the Creationists seem to have found their stride in manipulating the political system.

The question is how far can they go? Can they get out of the flyover states? Can their cancerous growth metastasize into pockets of ignorance (like Southern Alberta and rural New Brunswick) in Canada? Is their long term plan to breed an army of ignorant voters with which to take over the world?

I was thinking of posting this in the American Politics thread, but it seems like a separate topic.

As many of us will probably be aware, the Creationists have suffered a few set backs over the past few decades, and reality-based curriculums have taken hold in science classrooms throughout the developed world. Undaunted, the Creationists repackaged their fairy tales as "Intelligent Design" theory, and tried to get it back into the science classrooms. When this failed, they redoubled their efforts, and set to on writing legislation replete with obfuscating language about "academic freedom", which they fed to pliable politicians (who they've kept on a steady diet of massive campaign support), and they've now succeeded in two of the bible belt states - Louisiana (http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2008/06/louisiana-passes-first-antievolution-academic-freedom-law.ars) and Tennessee ("http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2012/03/teach-the-controversy-science-education-bills-advance-in-tennessee-oklahoma.ars) - with a third poised to crumble into the anti-intellectual abyss any minute.

So, after having suffered abject failures in their attempts to make a legitimate case, and subsequently having tried to suborn the legal system, the Creationists seem to have found their stride in manipulating the political system.

The question is how far can they go? Can they get out of the flyover states? Can their cancerous growth metastasize into pockets of ignorance (like Southern Alberta and rural New Brunswick) in Canada? Is their long term plan to breed an army of ignorant voters with which to take over the world?

bryanc, I can only speak for NL, since I know our educational system. We now have a system that is not controlled by various religious denominations, which is what we had when NL joined Canadian confederation on April 1, 1949. I don't see this sort of curriculum happening here.

However, when I taught grade six in Waycross, Georgia, which is considered to be the "buckle of the bible belt" (look on a map and you will see why), I was told not to teach evolution, not to discuss communism, and should let my students pray out loud just before they ate lunch each day in the school. I let them pray, but I did teach them about evolution and I did discuss communism and capitalism.

What did Southern Alberta ever do to you, bryanc, that you would refer to 'pockets of ignorance'?

Are you referring to the Hutterite colonies (they're all over, not just in the south) or the high population of Mormons in certain areas in the south? Or perhaps the Treaty 7 Indian bands who populate the area?

(I know you don't mean Caroline, because that's north of Calgary ...)

A little clarification please - that's a pretty broad swipe otherwise.

---

The topic would have been fine without the unnecessary characterizations of 'rural NB & Southern Alberta', thank you very much. Perhaps if you knew people from the South (USA that is), which I do, and also knew people from South Alberta (which I do, also), you would know that your comparisons are completely off base. The Southern USA is WAY worse already.

I recall touring with a black artist once across all of canada. One morning, we went into a really busy loud truckstop at around 6am to get breakfast. A couple of us white guys went in first and ordered some food, but when our black friend walked in, the whole place went completely silent. It was the craziest thing, I have ever experienced. And I have toured the south US, for years...

My friend looked at me, and said, perhaps this will be to go.

Southern Alberta. Now, not all of southern Alberta is like this, but many of us who travel, know southern alberta well. And many have written popular songs about it.

There you go folks, you've read it here first. Groovetube has exposed southern Alberta for being phobic about blacks.

No need to get overly upset about it. Merely a personal anecdote demonstrating how people may have particular impressions of the region.

It exists in many parts of the country.

I recall touring with a black artist once across all of canada. One morning, we went into a really busy loud truckstop at around 6am to get breakfast. A couple of us white guys went in first and ordered some food, but when our black friend walked in, the whole place went completely silent. It was the craziest thing, I have ever experienced. And I have toured the south US, for years...

My friend looked at me, and said, perhaps this will be to go.

Southern Alberta. Now, not all of southern Alberta is like this, but many of us who travel, know southern alberta well. And many have written popular songs about it.

Oh, for heaven's sake, they probably had never seen a black person up close and were just curious, so stopped talking to take a look.

If it was a typical truck stop, most of them were farmers (talkin' about the weather "Did you get any of that rain that came through yesterday?" "Nope" or "Got some on the north quarter.") or truckers. In any case, most of 'em would be the first ones to stop and help you if you were broken down on the side of the road.

And you base your opinion of an ENTIRE REGION on your perceptions of what people were thinking in one particular truckstop at 6 am one morning umpteen years ago. And broadcast that opinion on a forum as FACT?

Talk about pockets of ignorance ...

Oh, for heaven's sake, they probably had never seen a black person up close and were just curious, so stopped talking to take a look.

If it was a typical truck stop, most of them were farmers (talkin' about the weather "Did you get any of that rain that came through yesterday?" "Nope" or "Got some on the north quarter.") or truckers. In any case, most of 'em would be the first ones to stop and help you if you were broken down on the side of the road.

And you base your opinion of an ENTIRE REGION on your perceptions of what people were thinking in one particular truckstop at 6 am one morning umpteen years ago. And broadcast that opinion on a forum as FACT?

Talk about pockets of ignorance ...

Now MLeh. I thought you were pushing for more abilities to express opinions without the resulting chaos that regularly occurs.

In case I wasn't more clear before, I don't see these incidents as painting the "ENTIRE REGION" as racist. Truthfully, but our appearances before our black friend came in, he was rather normal looking. We were far, from normal looking. Trust me.

I was just saying, how people can get such an impression of southern alberta. I think the impression isn't fully justified (I actually have family all over Alberta, -including- southern alberta, even they tell stories... :) ).

It's a personal anecdote, and certainly not definitely the only impression. I know there are many, many gold hearted people there, just as there are everywhere.

Some goodhearted folk among those Southern Alberta racists. If you thought that this was an isolated incident, why bring it up?

I explained it in my post. Quite clearly.

I was thinking of posting this in the American Politics thread, but it seems like a separate topic.

As many of us will probably be aware, the Creationists have suffered a few set backs over the past few decades, and reality-based curriculums have taken hold in science classrooms throughout the developed world. Undaunted, the Creationists repackaged their fairy tales as "Intelligent Design" theory, and tried to get it back into the science classrooms. When this failed, they redoubled their efforts, and set to on writing legislation replete with obfuscating language about "academic freedom", which they fed to pliable politicians (who they've kept on a steady diet of massive campaign support), and they've now succeeded in two of the bible belt states - Louisiana (http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2008/06/louisiana-passes-first-antievolution-academic-freedom-law.ars) and Tennessee ("http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2012/03/teach-the-controversy-science-education-bills-advance-in-tennessee-oklahoma.ars) - with a third poised to crumble into the anti-intellectual abyss any minute.

So, after having suffered abject failures in their attempts to make a legitimate case, and subsequently having tried to suborn the legal system, the Creationists seem to have found their stride in manipulating the political system.

The question is how far can they go? Can they get out of the flyover states? Can their cancerous growth metastasize into pockets of ignorance (like Southern Alberta and rural New Brunswick) in Canada? Is their long term plan to breed an army of ignorant voters with which to take over the world?

bryanc, I would be less concerned about people offering Intelligent Design as a competing hypothesis, and more on the ability of students to write cogently or perform basic mathematical calculations. The U.S. continues to fall behind the rest of the world in these basic deliverables.

heh.

What did Southern Alberta ever do to you, bryanc, that you would refer to 'pockets of ignorance'?

You'll note I said "pockets of ignorance"... the vast majority of Albertans (South of Red Deer or North) are great people, but there are places scattered all over the world (I picked Southern Alberta and Rural New Brunswick on the basis of my personal experience) where ignorance is prized above knowledge, and education is treated with scorn.

The topic would have been fine without the unnecessary characterizations of 'rural NB & Southern Alberta', thank you very much. Perhaps if you knew people from the South (USA that is), which I do, and also knew people from South Alberta (which I do, also), you would know that your comparisons are completely off base. The Southern USA is WAY worse already.

I know lots of people from all of these places, and yes, the Southern US is in far worse shape. And that's at least partially because they've let this sort of crap erode their education system (it's a feedback loop).

I would be less concerned about people offering Intelligent Design as a competing hypothesis, and more on the ability of students to write cogently or perform basic mathematical calculations. The U.S. continues to fall behind the rest of the world in these basic deliverables.

The ability to write and perform basic mathematical calculations are outcomes of the primary school system. I agree that the primary school system is in dire need of massive reform and that these 'deliverables' are demonstrably absent in many, if not most graduates of that system. However, the failure of the primary school system to provide students with the basic capacities of symbolic communication is a different issue than the conflation of teaching religion as science with 'academic freedom.'

Indeed, if the school system were even remotely functional, the students would easily be able to distinguish "Intelligent Design" from a scientific hypothesis, so the whole argument would be moot.

bryanc, I would be less concerned about people offering Intelligent Design as a competing hypothesis, and more on the ability of students to write cogently or perform basic mathematical calculations. The U.S. continues to fall behind the rest of the world in these basic deliverables.

Agreed.

If intelligent design is the greatest crisis in education today, what are the implications of its acceptance on society VS the implications of a society increasingly ignorant of reading, writing, mathematics and general science? I'd say the latter would be far more detrimental to society than believing God has a guiding hand in creation.

You'll note I said "pockets of ignorance"... the vast majority of Albertans (South of Red Deer or North) are great people, but there are places scattered all over the world (I picked Southern Alberta and Rural New Brunswick on the basis of my personal experience) where ignorance is prized above knowledge, and education is treated with scorn.



I know lots of people from all of these places, and yes, the Southern US is in far worse shape. And that's at least partially because they've let this sort of crap erode their education system (it's a feedback loop).

I don't think you can truly generalize that the Southern US "is in far worse shape" re education. From the latest National Assessment of Educational Progress tests in reading, here are the states in the bottom group in order from the lowest on up --

Louisiana
New Mexico
Mississippi
Nevada
California
Arizona
West Virginia
Hawaii
Alaska
South Carolina
Alabama
Oklahoma
Texas
Tennessee

The state where I taught, Georgia, is not on the list of the bottom group re reading scores.

I'm not sure how the success or failure of the primary school system to teach kids to read has got into this discussion of how religious zealots have suborned the political system to sabotage the science curriculum in high schools?

I'm not sure how the success or failure of the primary school system to teach kids to read has got into this discussion of how religious zealots have suborned the political system to sabotage the science curriculum in high schools?

I guess because the high school system is failing in other areas of study unrelated to evolution and intelligent design that have far greater consequences on humanity.

I was talking about religious, gender & racial intolerance when I said the Southern USA was in far worse shape ... not reading scores in schools.

I'm not sure how the success or failure of the primary school system to teach kids to read has got into this discussion of how religious zealots have suborned the political system to sabotage the science curriculum in high schools?

I was playing off of you comment that "I know lots of people from all of these places, and yes, the Southern US is in far worse shape. And that's at least partially because they've let this sort of crap erode their education system (it's a feedback loop)." When you said that the "Southern US is in far worse shape" I assumed that you might be considering evidence that comes from sound research.

I was talking about religious, gender & racial intolerance when I said the Southern USA was in far worse shape ... not reading scores in schools.

Having lived in the Southern USA and having traveled to every state in the Southern USA, I think that it is unfair and incorrect to simply say that an entire region of a country is "in far worse shape" re "religious, gender & racial intolerance". Say that "religious, gender & racial intolerance" exists in parts of the US South due to the attitudes and actions of some people -- that may be correct, but it is also correct in most other regions of most other countries. Thus, just as you don't want to see places in AB or BC tarred with this sort of generalization, extend the same attitude to many people who live in the Southern USA.

"It is not enough to simply teach children to read; we have to give them something worth reading. Something that will stretch their imaginations – something that will help them make sense of their own lives and encourage them to reach out toward people whose lives are quite different from their own." Katherine Patterson

"It is not enough to simply teach children to read; we have to give them something worth reading. Something that will stretch their imaginations – something that will help them make sense of their own lives and encourage them to reach out toward people whose lives are quite different from their own." Katherine Patterson

..and teach them basic math.

Teach them to THINK.

..and teach them basic math.

A valid point, Macfury. I can only speak for literacy here in NL, and the emphasis now is upon critical understanding and the expression of these thoughts/ideas/feelings/understandings in an effective written manner. At least this is what I am teaching my pre and in-service teachers in my courses. Thus, students are able to understand what they are reading, able to make critical evaluations re this reading, and then express this deep-structure understanding in well-written sentences/paragraphs/essays (depending upon the age of the student).

However, for numeracy, the emphais here in NL is going away from "estimation" (getting close to the expected answer with the correct process) and more towards conceptual understanding and basic skill development. Thus, you understand the process of doing the math and are actually able to undertake this task without the aid of a calculator, which is only used to check one's math.

This is certainly a cultural mine field...... It is amazing how generalisations can enhance myopia. First, I think it is an urban legend that the U.S. System is a collapsed house of card. It seems to me what we are acknowledging here is the generational gap that exist in the value of what is basic knowledge.

Our own country is not immune, and many times I am astounded at the lack of knowledge young people have..... I'm sure my parents felt the same.

As for religious beliefs and red neck conservatism, at little secret for you..... It isn't only a Southern thing. I also live near Michigan and I can tell you those beliefs are alive and well there..... As they are in Alberta, where the rest of my family lives.


At issue with the American system, I believe, and help me out here Dr. G, is that they have a much more fractured delivery than we do here. While we have a general curriculum set by the Provincial government, it is my understanding that it is at the county level in many states. This can not help provide consistency.

This is certainly a cultural mine field...... It is amazing how generalisations can enhance myopia. First, I think it is an urban legend that the U.S. System is a collapsed house of card. It seems to me what we are acknowledging here is the generational gap that exist in the value of what is basic knowledge.

Our own country is not immune, and many times I am astounded at the lack of knowledge young people have..... I'm sure my parents felt the same.

As for religious beliefs and red neck conservatism, at little secret for you..... It isn't only a Southern thing. I also live near Michigan and I can tell you those beliefs are alive and well there..... As they are in Alberta, where the rest of my family lives.


At issue with the American system, I believe, and help me out here Dr. G, is that they have a much more fractured delivery than we do here. While we have a general curriculum set by the Provincial government, it is my understanding that it is at the county level in many states. This can not help provide consistency.

True, Rps. I have taught in New York City, and there were district standards and curricula within these districts. When I taught in Waycross, GA, there were things being taught in the Waycross City School District that was not being taught in the Ware County School District. Today, it is even more "fractured".

Over the years since I left Georgia and came here to NL, I have kept in touch with a friend who just retired as a principal of a school about 45 miles outside of Atlanta. He keeps me informed as to the state of education in GA. Amazingly, Georgia went from being in the bottom five states re education test scores in literacy and numercy when I left back in 1977, to one of the top 10 states on these academic markers. They even implemented a program to pay for college and university education in a state college or university in Georgia if the student maintains a B average. So, every semester that a student gets a B average or better in full-time attendance, they get their tuition and fees credited back to him or her. This is being funded by the Georgia State Lottery that was set up to help fund the Atlanta Olympic Games in 1996. After the games made a profit, they used the money for education.

Still, you can go all over the US to find different standards and items that are included or excluded from the curriculum.

I strongly agree with your comment that "As for religious beliefs and red neck conservatism, at little secret for you..... It isn't only a Southern thing." Amen, Brother.

Paix, mon ami.

.

keep the population poor, and dumb. Has always worked in history.

keep the population poor, and dumb. Has always worked in history.

Has it always worked? In history, yet?

It has worked for a few.

Now go eat some cake.

It has worked for a few.

Now go eat some cake.

Only for a few. OK.

.

http://theutscmessenger.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Catholic_2.png

The Catholic schools round up all their students and take them out of class by bus to go to abortion protests.

My kids go to private schools, and are usually sent to new ones every couple of years so they can get a variety of experiences and perspectives. They hated being rounded up like cattle and many of their fellow students didn't want to go and did not agree with the church perspective but were forced to. Was not informed about it before hand nor was the permission of any of the parents requested. I was not impressed that the extra cash forked out for them to go there resulted in them being taken out of class time to go support a political view. Especially one that I am opposed to.

My kids have not enjoyed being in the Catholic school for too many reasons to get into. They found it unbelieveably negative and depressing. It was a good eye opening experience for them. One they do not care to repeat.

Long overdue is bringing to an end the public funding of religious schools. Many public schools are underfunded. Funds have been parasitically sucked out of the public system for far too long. If religious organizations want their own schools, let them pay for it themselves.
This diversion of education funds only has a strong dumbing down and negative effect on all of us.

It is far better to to abolish religious schools altogether. Make secular education developing useful skills filling minds with facts instead of fantasy the standard. Religious activity is a private matter that people should do on their own time.

One of many links on this subject:
The UTSC Messenger | Why does Ontario continue to fund Catholic schools? (http://theutscmessenger.com/?p=5336)

That's shocking! Like sending your children to Ricky Dawkins School for Enlightened Atheist Wonder Children and being appalled by the lack of a Christmas Concert and nativity scene.

That's shocking! Like sending your children to Ricky Dawkins School for Enlightened Atheist Wonder Children and being appalled by the lack of a Christmas Concert and nativity scene.

Somehow, I don't think that's quite the same thing. However, perhaps you're right that we shouldn't be shocked at the catholic school busing the children without consent to a protest.

I agree that religious schools should not be directly government funded. However, I also agree with a voucher system that would see public schools compete with private schools. It isn't the money used to support Catholic schools (which are also public schools) that is causing the school system to fail. It's the management of the public school system and the way the curriculum is developed and applied. We could be getting far better eduction for far less money.

I agree that religious schools should not be directly government funded. However, I also agree with a voucher system that would see public schools compete with private schools. It isn't the money used to support Catholic schools (which are also public schools) that is causing the school system to fail. It's the management of the public school system and the way the curriculum is developed and applied. We could be getting far better eduction for far less money.

I agree 100% with you MacFury. I send my kids to Catholic School (I think its the best of whats available) but I think vouchers is the most equitable system and also the one that will give us the best results. I'd like to see all public school systems canned to be replaced with privately run schools.
The irony is that while all these guys are whining about how Catholic education is inferior, My kids Catholic School has been consistently in the top ten in provincial standardized testing for several years now. In fact in our area, the public school kids are consistently under performing compared to the Catholic board kids.

No public schools, and all private schools?

That'll do wonders for the large numbers of low income families!

No public schools, and all private schools?

That'll do wonders for the large numbers of low income families!

It would actually because they'd all get vouchers to send their kids to the school of their choice just like everyone else. One that might be tailored to meet the needs of their children better.

Soooo, let me get this straight. All parents pay the taxes, and then they get vouchers. And they can choose the private school they want. In their area of course.

Of course, there'll be schools that take the vouchers and want more money because they're a better school. Sounds to me a way for expensive private schools to syphon tax dollars from the public system. As if it isn't in need f money as it is...

MacGuiver, he simply doesn't understand the concept. Public schools couldn't ask for more because they would be competing against the private ones for the same vouchers.

This documentary is a real eye opener on the state of education in the US and the mess of the Public School System. It also looks at how voucher systems are working in Europe producing better teachers and better students.

Stupid in America - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx4pN-aiofw)

I would have to look at this in much more detail before commenting further. Or I'd love to hear what others have to say pro and, con.

I think one has to consider the possibility that the "Puppet Masters", the guys that pull the strings in Congress do not want an educated public.

An educated public might just recognize that the Billionaire Bunch has set things up to allow them steal everything they can from you and I. We might even demand that Congress work in our interest rather than that of the Billionaires.

What better way to accomplish this than education vouchers. To get an actual education the voucher would require trebling or quadrupling from the parents pocket. Everyone else becomes Ghetto Fodder. Doomed to spend their lifetime feeding the Banksters insatiable appetite.

Re: Vouchers
I believe Alberta uses a voucher system, where the money follows the student instead of the student following the money. (I only know of it second hand, from knowing a teacher in a rural school division whose school was adversely affected because they had to fund the buses to go into Red Deer to the composite county school there, but then the students got off the bus and went to the City of Red Deer school instead of the County school.)

I'm sure it's not perfect, but perhaps someone with a child in the Alberta system could explain the realities of the system from their perspective?

I'd be curious about whether the European version allows vouchers to be used at prestigious expensive private schools with top ups.

I'm not inherently opposed to the voucher model, and I think it can work well in some circumstances. The problem with using such a market-based approach is that there are several assumptions that are not universally true. For example, the market model assumes that there are good schools & teachers available to everyone, everywhere, and that, given a choice, parents would select those options. In a market-driven system, there will be far more profit to be made by providing more and better choices to large urban centres, and or catering to the desires (regardless of how pedagogically sound) of the wealthy.

So, especially in a country with geography like Canada, I don't think the voucher system would work. Parents in Vancouver, Toronto, and other major urban centres would have a lot to choose from, and there would probably be an improvement in some cases (although there would also be an increase in schools that taught religiously or otherwise constrained curricula, which would actually make things worse). But smaller markets would wind up with the leftovers, and would likely suffer from an education system even worse than the current (inadequate) one.

This is what I suspect. I read a bit on the Dutch system that uses vouchers, and it doesn't have expensive private schools taking vouchers with top ups. And you're right, given the geography here, (and in America for that matter), things would be quite different. I wouldn't be opposed to something that would make things better either. But I do tend to be a little suspicious when people support privatization of anything without real details on how it could work here, merely posting examples of systems that are likely quite different to what would end up happening here. There's plenty of examples of privatization gone very wrong to want to really see how such a system could really be, a better one.

Alas, public education has gone so drastically wrong that I find it difficult to imagine that some privatization could make things any worse. Look at the current discrepancy in teacher salaries across Canada wrought by the public system:

Canadian Teacher Salary Rankings: Provinces and Territories | Nucleus Learning (http://www.nucleuslearning.com/content/canadian-teacher-salary-rankings-provinces-and-territories)

Alas, public education has gone so drastically wrong that I find it difficult to imagine that some privatization could make things any worse. Look at the current discrepancy in teacher salaries across Canada wrought by the public system:

Canadian Teacher Salary Rankings: Provinces and Territories | Nucleus Learning (http://www.nucleuslearning.com/content/canadian-teacher-salary-rankings-provinces-and-territories)

I just looked at that briefly, and it doesn't look too bad. Apart from the territories and Alberta, the salaries are pretty low, but not unliveable. And teaching does have some nice benefits (like extensive summer holidays), which compensates somewhat. I'd like to see the salaries for teachers across Canada go up significantly, but especially those in QC and the Atlantic provinces.

I just looked at that briefly, and it doesn't look too bad. Apart from the territories and Alberta, the salaries are pretty low, but not unliveable. And teaching does have some nice benefits (like extensive summer holidays), which compensates somewhat. I'd like to see the salaries for teachers across Canada go up significantly, but especially those in QC and the Atlantic provinces.

I'm referring to the discrepancies across the board. I can't imagine more privatization making those discrepancies worse.

I'm referring to the discrepancies across the board. I can't imagine more privatization making those discrepancies worse.

Really? I would think that salaries in the private sector would be even more extreme at both ends; schools that were borderline or failing to make a profit in small markets would certainly not pay their teachers nearly as well as those making rich profits in boutique niches. Look at the difference between what a doctor working for a free medical clinic in a poor neighbourhood in South LA makes and what a doctor working in a plastic surgery clinic in Hollywood makes. Who's the better doctor? How has the free market ensured the better doctor is better paid?

Really? I would think that salaries in the private sector would be even more extreme at both ends; schools that were borderline or failing to make a profit in small markets would certainly not pay their teachers nearly as well as those making rich profits in boutique niches. Look at the difference between what a doctor working for a free medical clinic in a poor neighbourhood in South LA makes and what a doctor working in a plastic surgery clinic in Hollywood makes. Who's the better doctor? How has the free market ensured the better doctor is better paid?

The free market is not even in operation in that case. The free clinic is the market distortion introduced by government.

I suspect the free market would probably encourage some of the lower qualified teachers to quit--because voucher-based schools usually attract vouchers based on student performance. I suspect the top rate for really good teachers would rise, while the bottom end would remain flat. Poor teachers would remain in low-performing schools until they were driven out of business.

A bit about the Alberta voucher system:
Alberta Education - Private Schools (http://education.alberta.ca/parents/choice/private.aspx)

Introduction

The Government of Alberta recognizes that parents have the right to choose a private school for their children and has provided financial support for private schools since 1967. From a rate of $100 per student in 1967, government support has increased to the current level of 60% of the base instruction rate for school jurisdictions for all level 1 funded private schools, and 70% of applicable per student grants for level 2 funded private schools plus other specific funding grants, as outlined in Part 8 of the Funding Manual for School Authorities (http://education.alberta.ca/admin/funding/manual.aspx).
Section 28 of the School Act outlines the requirements for private schools for grades 1 -12. Private schools may also offer Early Childhood Services (ECS) programs. All private schools:


must meet the basic requirements of section 28(1) of the School Act (http://www.qp.gov.ab.ca/Documents/acts/S03.CFM)
may charge tuition
may select their students and do not have to enroll students with special education needs (with the exception of Designated Special Education Private Schools)
Notify parents of children in funded private schools that they may ask their private school board to review any board decision, but they do not have the right under the School Act to ask the Minister of Education to review a board’s decision
have boards that are elected from the membership of its society or non-profit company
employ teachers holding valid Alberta teaching certificates but not eligible for active memberships in the ATA as per the Teaching Profession Act.



I believe this means that parents receive a voucher for 60% of what the public school would receive for the same Grade School student. Parents are responsible for all tuitions etc. above that amount.

Having spent a few days assigned to a couple of these schools there seem to be two big draws. School uniforms and no special needs kids. I am not at all sure how school uniforms translate into better education.

However I have seen how disruptive some special needs students can be in "normal" classroom situations. With apologies to Marc a lot more attention needs to be paid to this area of education. I can see the need for these kids to learn to function in a real world environment and the benefits of "normal" kids learning to adjust and make allowances for those who are not normal. OTOH some of these children are quite disruptive if not given a level of supervision that is quite impossible in a 30:1 class room environment. I honestly have no answers here. Indeed the one size fits all approach of public education is probably incapable of the individual solutions that need to be found for some of these children.

Aside from private schools, I believe Alberta allows students to go to public schools not in their 'catchment' area, and the funding for the student follows them to that public school.

I'm referring to the discrepancies across the board. I can't imagine more privatization making those discrepancies worse.

I went to a private school--a very old and elitist one.

At the time, teachers actually made slightly less than their public sector counterparts. They also had no security, in that all teachers were on 1 year contracts that had to be renewed yearly. As I don't recall any major shuffling of teachers, most were apparently renewed without much issue.

Despite that, most chose, however, to work in private schools because it was less of a headache in many ways.... smaller classes (the largest class we ever had was 25 students, and that was unusual), very academically focused students (98% of us went on to university), few special needs students, etc.

Not all private schools are created equal though.

Aside from private schools, I believe Alberta allows students to go to public schools not in their 'catchment' area, and the funding for the student follows them to that public school.

I believe you can do that within the Toronto District School Board as well, the only caveat being that there needs to be room enough in the out-of-catchment school.

I believe you can do that within the Toronto District School Board as well, the only caveat being that there needs to be room enough in the out-of-catchment school.

You can apply for sure--but the free spots in the bet schools dry up almost instantly.

Tennessee Passes Law Allowing Creationism, Climate Denial to be Taught in Classroom : TreeHugger (http://www.treehugger.com/environmental-policy/tennessee-passes-law-allowing-creationism-climate-denial-be-taught-classroom.html)

Tennessee Passes Law Allowing Creationism, Climate Denial to be Taught in Classroom : TreeHugger (http://www.treehugger.com/environmental-policy/tennessee-passes-law-allowing-creationism-climate-denial-be-taught-classroom.html)

This will be interesting. I can just envision another Scopes trial, but in reverse -- a teacher refusing to teach creationism, whereas Scopes was accused of teaching about Darwin's Theory of Evolution. We shall see.

Inherit The Wind - Spencer Tracy Speech - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_DQUAuNUvw)

Personally, I think all religious theories should be taught at some point in school. There's no reason to exclude any of it, or shove any one of them down anyone's throat as -the- right choice.

I don't believe all religious theories should be taught in school--there are simply too many of them. However, any public school should certainly cover those of major historical and sociological significance.

Tennessee Passes Law Allowing Creationism, Climate Denial to be Taught in Classroom : TreeHugger (http://www.treehugger.com/environmental-policy/tennessee-passes-law-allowing-creationism-climate-denial-be-taught-classroom.html)

Why should "climate denial" not be allowed to be taught in the classroom?

I don't believe all religious theories should be taught in school--there are simply too many of them. However, any public school should certainly cover those of major historical and sociological significance.

This they do, Macfury. As a high school social studies teacher, part of the curriculum in the State of New York was an extensive section on world religions, especially their influences upon "major historical and sociological" and geo-political and economic issues.

This they do, Macfury. As a high school social studies teacher, part of the curriculum in the State of New York was an extensive section on world religions, especially their influences upon "major historical and sociological" and geo-political and economic issues.

Yes, but we need a cut-off point--"all religions" encompasses far too much material.

Yes, but we need a cut-off point--"all religions" encompasses far too much material.

As best as I can remember, our two month World Religions section encompassed the following religions -- Christianity , Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Judaism, Baha'i, Jainism and Shinto. We covered the major themes of each religion, where they had followers of that faith, and their effects upon world history/geography. As a creative elective, I let small groups of students to create their own faiths. The had to include the main ideas for their faith, the daily/weekly/monthly/yearly traditions of this faith, and any special holidays their religion might have. One of the best new religions were the followers of Rochesterism (I taught in a school just outside of Rochester, NY). It was a very non-secular religion, very liberal and democratic, and full of holidays and traditions ................ most of which required the children to stay at home from school for a religious holiday.:confused::eek::D

Rochesterism? I believe you can see the Kodak Kathedral from the Can of Worms.

Rochesterism? I believe you can see the Kodak Kathedral from the Can of Worms.

Good one, Macfury. As most of their parents worked at Kodak, there were two Church of the Kodakians. One student in the group was a Mormon, and his group added "and latter day saints" to their faith's name. This gave me the opportunity to include the Mormon faith in our studies, especially since Joseph Smith Jr. began his movement in upstate New York.

I almost stopped in Palmyra once!

I almost stopped in Palmyra once!

I was there once, just southeast of Rochester.