More on Apple and Adobe Flash

chas_m · Feb 8th, 2010, 01:15 AM

If the news stories I posted had bad info, I apologise on their behalf.

groovetube · Feb 8th, 2010, 08:17 AM

	Quote:			Originally Posted by mguertin
	Correct. It's about what kind of wrapper is getting used to embed the video. H.264 pretty much is the standard for web video these days. It's about using a flash based player to embed the video in the page vs. using HTML5 to embed the video in the page. This is why, for web video, HTML5 is appealing. Less overhead, hardware acceleration (because it's using an OS level video playing engine), etc. This is the same wrapper vs. codec issue I'm always preaching about when people say "(avi\|wmv\|mkv\|mov) video looks (better\|worse)" ... blaming or praising the wrapper when it's the codecs and vice-versa. I'm all for getting the correct info here as well GT.

this is true. I'd like to know why PCs allow hardware acceleration and great video playback (no fans) and apple refuses to allow access to the APIs.

My feeling, and I know this is shared, it ain't all adobe's fault.

mguertin · Feb 8th, 2010, 08:49 AM

	Quote:			Originally Posted by groovetube
	this is true. I'd like to know why PCs allow hardware acceleration and great video playback (no fans) and apple refuses to allow access to the APIs. My feeling, and I know this is shared, it ain't all adobe's fault.

From what I read in one of these articles recently hardware acceleration for windows playback is only coming into play as of flash 10.1. Up until now it's likely just using the provided windows video overlay (which is a whole different ball of wax than the way OSX does that sort of thing).

To get acceleration on OSX you have to use core-video, which would also mean native playing speeds and performance but since flash is running a sandboxed VM inside a browser plugin I don't think this is possible. Whether it's mostly because they are running VM and one set of code it's hard to say, but I'd lean towards that explanation.

That was the part that blew me away, that they run a unified set of code and VM's to execute it on non-native platforms. It's no wonder they have performance issues if this is in fact the way they approach things.

groovetube · Feb 8th, 2010, 08:58 AM

	Quote:			Originally Posted by mguertin
	That was the part that blew me away, that they run a unified set of code and VM's to execute it on non-native platforms. It's no wonder they have performance issues if this is in fact the way they approach things.

that, was news to me. Flash performance wise always ran well, in fact I switched to os x as a flash developer back in 03 from the pc platform. I mainly have interface issues in flash right now.

jmlachance · Feb 8th, 2010, 09:06 AM

Rob Pegoraro - Apple iPad's rejection of Adobe Flash could signal the player's death knell - washingtonpost.com

groovetube · Feb 8th, 2010, 09:19 AM

	Quote:			Originally Posted by jmlachance
	Rob Pegoraro - Apple iPad's rejection of Adobe Flash could signal the player's death knell - washingtonpost.com

death knell?

Hardly. A real drag for internet users from the ensuing colossal battle of standards between apple, M$, google, and adobe ? Definite.

chas_m · Feb 9th, 2010, 02:54 AM

Groovetube:

Jon Stewart had a very good "rant" the other day on the poor quality of headline writing (too many "aggressive" action verbs in a misguided attempt to excite/attract readers), and this is a good example of it. A ridiculous headline (and hypothesis), I concur.

The truth of the matter is that Apple would *love* for Adobe to fix the issue with Flash performance. Apple is not trying to kill Flash -- Adobe is doing that for them -- but they are not going to put up with sub-par performance, particularly in comparison to Windows.

In the past, Apple had little choice but to take what was given to them and be glad they got it. Those days are now officially over.

groovetube · Feb 12th, 2010, 07:32 AM

an interesting bit of news:
John Nack on Adobe: Flash & Core Animation on Mac OS X

and:
Open Access to Content and Applications (Adobe Featured Blogs)

	Quote:
	We are now on the verge of delivering Flash Player 10.1 for smartphones with all but one of the top manufacturers. This includes Google's Android, RIM's Blackberry, Nokia, Palm Pre and many others across form factors including not only smartphones but also tablets, netbooks, and internet-connected TVs. Flash in the browser provides a competitive advantage to these devices because it will enable their customers to browse the whole Web.

I've thought that once adobe delivers this, if it's indeed successful and runs very well on every other device besides the iphone, things may get interesting.

groovetube · Feb 16th, 2010, 10:20 PM

for all the ones yelling about non proprietary standards, and the heralding of a new era in video.
The Dark Side of HTML 5 Video

chas_m · Feb 17th, 2010, 02:40 AM

I should just add, for the purposes of this discussion, that Adobe CLEARLY has access to the core animation/core video APIs -- they could not have released CS4 without it, nor Microsoft their Silverlight. So the whole "Apple is withholding the APIs" thing is 100% pure BS.

The problem, as mguertin seems to have identified it, is Adobe's dependence on ported and VM'd code rather than actually writing real code.

The fact that even **MICROSOFT** has figured this out should have been a clue to Adobe, but apparently not:
Microsoft 'worked with Apple' for Silverlight on iPhone, says Goldfarb | Web Apps News - Betanews
(this was back in November)

Ever since MS changed their ways and started writing native code for the Mac versions of their products -- taking inspiration from but not being a port job of the Windows product -- they've been hugely successful in the Mac market, even though the "power elite" of Mac users hate them with the burning passion of a thousand suns. The last MS rep I spoke with told me in no uncertain terms that Office for Mac was "considerably more successful" than most Windows products (excluding the obvious moneymakers) in terms of profitability.

Sorry, but to me the evidence is pretty clear: Adobe should fix Flash by writing native code for best performance on each of the three biggest platforms. Were they to do that, Apple would have no logical objection to Flash on the iPhone/Touch/iPad, and everyone -- even Linux geeks -- would be better off in the long run ... even Adobe itself (since they plan to integrate more Flash into all of their other apps). I'm not saying Apple has never been bullheaded about anything, but in this particular case I think the available evidence points to Adobe as the problem.

Feb 8th, 2010, 01:15 AM	#51
chas_m Honourable Citizen Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Victoria BC Posts: 11,323	If the news stories I posted had bad info, I apologise on their behalf. __________________ Cheers chas_m Evangelist, ACDSee Pro for Mac: Get the beta! Join the community! Help us build the next great Mac photo manager! Our life in Victoria BC • Music blog • My Podcast • Film blog Victoria Macintosh Users Group

Feb 8th, 2010, 09:06 AM	#55
jmlachance Full Citizen Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Aylmer, Qc Posts: 758	Washington Post article Rob Pegoraro - Apple iPad's rejection of Adobe Flash could signal the player's death knell - washingtonpost.com

Feb 9th, 2010, 02:54 AM	#57
chas_m Honourable Citizen Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Victoria BC Posts: 11,323	Groovetube: Jon Stewart had a very good "rant" the other day on the poor quality of headline writing (too many "aggressive" action verbs in a misguided attempt to excite/attract readers), and this is a good example of it. A ridiculous headline (and hypothesis), I concur. The truth of the matter is that Apple would love for Adobe to fix the issue with Flash performance. Apple is not trying to kill Flash -- Adobe is doing that for them -- but they are not going to put up with sub-par performance, particularly in comparison to Windows. In the past, Apple had little choice but to take what was given to them and be glad they got it. Those days are now officially over. __________________ Cheers chas_m Evangelist, ACDSee Pro for Mac: Get the beta! Join the community! Help us build the next great Mac photo manager! Our life in Victoria BC • Music blog • My Podcast • Film blog Victoria Macintosh Users Group

Feb 16th, 2010, 10:20 PM	#59
groovetube Honourable Citizen Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Toronto Posts: 4,367	for all the ones yelling about non proprietary standards, and the heralding of a new era in video. The Dark Side of HTML 5 Video __________________ If a conservative is a liberal who's been mugged, a liberal is a conservative who's been arrested." - Tom Wolfe

Feb 17th, 2010, 02:40 AM	#60
chas_m Honourable Citizen Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Victoria BC Posts: 11,323	I should just add, for the purposes of this discussion, that Adobe CLEARLY has access to the core animation/core video APIs -- they could not have released CS4 without it, nor Microsoft their Silverlight. So the whole "Apple is withholding the APIs" thing is 100% pure BS. The problem, as mguertin seems to have identified it, is Adobe's dependence on ported and VM'd code rather than actually writing real code. The fact that even MICROSOFT has figured this out should have been a clue to Adobe, but apparently not: Microsoft 'worked with Apple' for Silverlight on iPhone, says Goldfarb \| Web Apps News - Betanews (this was back in November) Ever since MS changed their ways and started writing native code for the Mac versions of their products -- taking inspiration from but not being a port job of the Windows product -- they've been hugely successful in the Mac market, even though the "power elite" of Mac users hate them with the burning passion of a thousand suns. The last MS rep I spoke with told me in no uncertain terms that Office for Mac was "considerably more successful" than most Windows products (excluding the obvious moneymakers) in terms of profitability. Sorry, but to me the evidence is pretty clear: Adobe should fix Flash by writing native code for best performance on each of the three biggest platforms. Were they to do that, Apple would have no logical objection to Flash on the iPhone/Touch/iPad, and everyone -- even Linux geeks -- would be better off in the long run ... even Adobe itself (since they plan to integrate more Flash into all of their other apps). I'm not saying Apple has never been bullheaded about anything, but in this particular case I think the available evidence points to Adobe as the problem. __________________ Cheers chas_m Evangelist, ACDSee Pro for Mac: Get the beta! Join the community! Help us build the next great Mac photo manager! Our life in Victoria BC • Music blog • My Podcast • Film blog Victoria Macintosh Users Group

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