Apple has its worms, too. Why not switch [to a PC]?

interact · Jul 9th, 2004, 09:31 PM

http://reviews-zdnet.com.com/4520-3118-5142534.html

I can't even begin to describe how annoyed I was when I saw this.

Macaholic · Jul 9th, 2004, 09:47 PM

Fools. Like any of that's going to convince an OS X user to "switch". What they miss is that you have to run that POS OS on them.

PCs SUCK -- on account of Windows.

Case closed.

[ July 09, 2004, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: Macaholic ]

RC51Pilot · Jul 10th, 2004, 01:03 AM

Don't you guys think you're taking this Apple PC bashing thing a little too far - everyone's entitled to their opinion. Oh sure it's all great when Apple guys bash PC's but whoa, stop the press when they fire back - I happen to agree to some extent with they said in that ad/article. I use both, but I don't owe either company any sort of allegiance, nor do I really care all that much.

Come on fellas, there's penty of room for everyone

Macaholic · Jul 10th, 2004, 01:22 AM

Point taken. HOWEVER, the entire premise of the article is preposterous, it exaggerates, and in a way it feels desperate.

For starts, you don't pay $129.00 "for all updates". That's a lie. They surely know this.

Secondly, "Gradually increasing security concerns"? This, from an article suggesting to go Windows?? After yet, more AND DIFFERENT ways of hacking surfacing in the past weeks with Exploder AND Russian servers hijacking you from trusted websites to install trojans??! Which ALSO means that the servers of those trusted sites have been compromised, too! ROTFLMFAO.

iMacs not being available until September is justification to think about switching Platforms?? Preposterous. This line of thinking, ignoring the strengths and weaknesses of a platform -- MOST important being the OS -- is just the kind of blind attitude the Masses possess when buying a computer: "I want the cheapest PC"... and yet, it's the OPERATING SYSTEM that is MORE important as you use a computer every day than how much PC you crammed into your car's trunk for how little money one day. The iMacs will be there. Switching on account of them being late is so over-simplistic it's moronic.

The only point they make that has a mere shred of legitimacy are Apple's "persistent fulfillment problems". over the years, the announce today, ship in two months" thing can be a drag. But enough to "switch"?? Hardly. And, on the subject of iPods, they can't keep them on the shelves. What a wonderful problem to have.

In closing, there are far more significant issues to consider when switching in EITHER direction, that casually basing the suggestion to switch on their reasons is stupid.

Toca Loca Nation · Jul 10th, 2004, 01:37 AM

RC51 - while i agree that dogmatic responses are sometimes less than objective, i think that the article in question is neither logical nor convincing. the security issues it cites are laughable, when contrasted to issues with windows. the only possible justification for that article is if it promoted buying those p.c.'s....with LINUX!! and i dunno - i'm supposed to buy a pc because i have to wait to get an imac? that makes no sense. there's emacs, towers, and apple's forte, laptops. i'm not in favour of kneejerk protectionism, but i think it's okay to flame on at anything that is so shoddily written.

and i'm a pc user.

Trevor... · Jul 10th, 2004, 01:42 AM

alot of Mac users are actually switching to PC these days, no one reason stands out.

Don't hang the messanger,

Alot of them are people who just got caught up in iMac hype and had no real long-term devotion.
It was just a fad to them,

Quite a few are people who are swithing because they have been orphaned by software that is no longer supported on the Mac. Alot of hardcore Premiere users will switch to PC before switching to Final Cut Pro.

Many people just plain hate Mac OS X,

Many people don't perceive the value of iLife.

Budgets are tighter than ever before and budgets don't look beyond the next 12 weeks anymore.

There is no one reason, there isn't any one reason people switch to macs either.

I switch people both ways all the time,

Macaholic · Jul 10th, 2004, 02:11 AM

	Quote:
	alot of Mac users are actually switching to PC these days

Really?

While I do agree with you on a couple of points, overall, I don't buy it.

iMac as a "fad". Sure, there'll be some who are like that, I suppose.

Adobe Premier? There may be some, but Final Cut Pro has solidified the Mac's presence in editing more than if FCP and ALL THE REST of Apple's video stuff never came about. As Premier was cross-platform, it might have ended up looking like there's no difference. With FCP and all the other technologies Apple puts out in pro DV, there's a greater distinction between the platforms. And frankly, Adobe didn't have the stomach to compete. Avid sure does, though.

Orphaned software? There'll be a BUSHEL of software they'll have to PAY FOR if they go Windows. Cross-grade discounts are not the norm. Upgrades from 9 to X would generally be far cheaper and often free with less complex software titles.

Don't see the value of iLife? Perhaps. Content creation is not everybody's cup of tea. on the other hand, there are surely more closet or unfulfilled content creators who are unknowing of how a computer can serve them in this way (on either platform), let alone those who are knowledgeable on it and yet miss the superior attributes of iLife.

Budgets don't look beyond twelve weeks anymore? Too bad for them. If they had some perspective, they might be able to grasp the whole TCO thing, and factor on all the HELL that is Windows security. unfortunately, it's a perception issue. much to their own detriment.

Now, on to OS 9:

Yes, in the earlier days of OS X, there was much teeth gnashing and moaning from people who preferred OS 9. What a solution: go Windows [img]tongue.gif[/img]

XP is a modern OS, just like OS X is. It has higher system requirements for smooth operation than 95 or ME did, just like X does when compared to 9. AND there is MORE things different about Windows than there are with OS X when compared to OS 9, man. To switch from Classic to XP (or any Windows) because people are unhappy with change is kind of ridiculous. It doesn't make sense.

Frankly, once I chose to stop clinging to The Old Ways and open my mind to Apple's new UI concepts, I have found that this, along with the far superior power under the hood, makes Mac OS X WAY better than 9. Apple Menu? Application menu? BIG DEAL! You have them both in the Dock, fully configurable and with less racing around the screen from one corner to he next. Minimize to the Dock, rather than Windowshade? Whatever. I KNOW where the window is in X and can see its contents, rather than scanning across several minimized title-bars. And Exposé? Pretty well makes Windowshade -- and even minimize to the Dock -- irrelevant.

As time has gone by, I think that the user-base has acclimated to X fairly well. Yeah, there are still a lot of old macs out there that can't run it (I think of all those schools who bought those crappy performa 5200s and just shudder -- and in education, Apple's got some problems), and people are probably staying 'cause for them it aint broke. Fine. If their needs are met (possibly, those needs are simple, or established, not subject to expanding), then fine. XP's adoption rate has been nothing to write home about, too.

I do a lot of reading on the web. A LOT. Too much, as a matter of fact. I also know several PC guys who switched. I don't know where you're getting the impression of people bailing out on OS X, because from what I've seen, there are many people coming to the platform -- and a LARGE part of it IS because of Mac OS X. Now, many experienced people look at it and say, "Hey! They got a real OS cooking there now!" and, really as a result of their DISSATISFACTION with Windows, they move. When you take into account OS X's cross-platform capability, they're not talking a totally isolating existence from Windows users and networks, too. I keep an eye on new guys coming in here to ehMac, and the number of PC persons looking to switch is increasing. over the past week or so, there has had to be at least four. And that's just our wee corner of the web.

Personally, I have seen VERY little talk with the Macworld about people leaving the platform over the past say, two years at least. it's NO WAY NEAR what it was like during the dark days of '94-'97!

[ July 10, 2004, 02:35 AM: Message edited by: Macaholic ]

PosterBoy · Jul 10th, 2004, 02:35 AM

While the article is kind of dumb, Trevor has some good points.

I know a few people who jumped on the iMac bandwagon because they looked pretty and ended up more frustrated than I ever thought anyone could be by their computer.

I know some people who still think that OS X is to lickable to be taken seriously, or also just don't like the way it does things (some people, especially new users, seem to prefer Windows Wizards. They're annoying to me, but when you don't know anything they are pretty handy).

I know lots of people who couldn't give a horses patoot about iLife.

There is no one reason that these people are dissatisfied with Macs, they just are. It's naive to think that OS X is for everyone, and the same can be said of Windows. Some people switch to Macs because they are fed up with combating virus outbreaks, or hunting down spyware. Some don't like how some pretty basic settings are still not very obvious to set in Windows.

There is one thing I will say about that article, though. The point about "every update being 129$"? I'd say it's fairly valid. Certainly, every little 10.x.x update is free, but so is every critical and recommended update to Windows. It doesn't matter that major OS X updates have loads of new features (compared to Service Packs which are typically bug fixes and patches), it matters that they come out frequently, it matters that Apple only lets you play with new toys if you have the latest OS, and itmatters that every 18 months you've had to shell out 129$ to get the latest OS.

The transition to OS X is all but over. Save a few markets, pretty much everyone is now updated. But I'm not sure I believe that Apple's market share is growing. The Google Zeitgeist has had the Mac at 4% for roughly, oh, forever now. Perhaps there are enough people leaving/not upgrading as there are people switching?

Oops. I'm rambling.

Macaholic · Jul 10th, 2004, 02:44 AM

Percentages are imperfect. 10% of $100.00 is LESS than 5% of $1,000.00. When did Apple enjoy its greatest marketshare by percentage? 1992 or so? 10%, maybe? Now, how many computers were there in the market at that time? Where was the internet back then? Nowhere. There are WAY MORE computers out there today than there ever has been, even during the slump. So, a smaller piece of a bigger pie is not a bad thing. In actual, total CPU units, Apple is selling more than they have year-over-year and on a quarterly perspective. marketshare % is down, but units moved are up. How does that square?

As for OS X's esthetics? People who fancy themselves to be geeks, and yet only go skin-deep when looking at OS X, aint the geeks they think they are. OS X is magnitudes more powerful than Classic was under the hood, and can duke it out with any modern OS in the world, today. Those "geeks" should get with the program.

Trevor... · Jul 10th, 2004, 03:21 AM

The number of users of either platform that care about the nuts and bolts of the opperating system is very, very small.

The problem is the hardcore enthusiest doesn't have the same perspective as the average user who doesn't. A "macaholic" doesn't have the same perspective as the average end user.

I remember talking to someone around the time Windows 95 came out, this guy was a teacher and used macs at school, but PC's at home. What he said he liked about the mac was that it never changed. He had gone from DOS, to Windows 3.1, to Windows 95 in about 4 years time.

With every PC upgrade came a new interface to learn, with the mac 7.5 worked almost exactly the same way 1.0, DOS, Windows 3 and Windows 95 had almost nothing in common.

There were never training camps ran for staff when there was a Mac OS upgrade,

With Mac OS X, you have a painfully simple interface replaced with, Candyland on crack.

These users don't look at Mac OS X and say, "cool, it has a Unix BSD core and a OpenGL accelerated interface" they look at it and say
"This is different, I hate it" this was exagerated by the fact the mac interface had changed very little in the past 18 years.

They don't want new interface concepts, they want continuity. The first thing people ask me to do when I upgrade them to XP is to show them remote support. That is quickly followed by a demand to turn off the (insert obscenity of your choice) interface.

When it comes to orphaned software, it isn't a matter of paying for new software so much as the software DOES NOT EXIST for the mac anymore. However, most companies do offer cross-grade discounts after killing mac support. This is especially true in education where alot of mac software has not been updated in 10 years or more. All the stuff I am doing now is either Quicktime or web based, and therefore the platform moot, but there is alot of old mac softwhere out there that has been abandoned for a very long time that is still used every day, there is PC software in the same camp, but much less of it.

As for Final Cut Pro vs. Adobe, alot of users are more devoted to their software than their platform. It's only natural that FCP will become solidified on the Mac, the only other option is Avid DV, which is terrible on any platform.

People who have been using Premiere for 10 years are not going to run out and switch to Final Cut Pro just for the want of their mac.

You have to turn off you Mac partisan eyes and look through the eyes of the average user.

The adoption rates of both XP and X have been poor, XP has been poor because it is just Windows 2000 with a bunch of crap thrown in and everyone knows it.

The reasons people switch to either side varies, I switched one girl last year because she needed to run some PC only software for college, and she was really into games. I switched a guy to a Mac OS 9 running mac because he was destroying Windows every other week, I switched a guy to PC because he needed alot of cheap horse power, I switched a guy to Mac because he was captivated with iMovie and iDVD. He was one of those guys who takes the camcorder to parent teacher interviews.

The people who goto macworld are serious mac partisans, that is like going to a Conservative Party rally and asking people about their affection for Quebec, the problem hardcore mac users have is they developed a distorted view of the scene because they limit themselves to such a narrow field of vision and anyone who disagrees with them is automatically wrong and worthy of nothing but the most acidic contempt.