What's With Leopard Permission Repair?

bagelmaster · Mar 25th, 2008, 03:42 PM

sorry, dude. I replied to the wrong post. confusing with all of the layers of quoting going one. Cheers.

hayesk · Mar 25th, 2008, 04:12 PM

	Quote:			Originally Posted by Benito
	I am still quite the newbie with Macs, what is Permissions and what does repairing it do for my Mac?

Permission repair is something people do as a placebo instead of actual troubleshooting. For example, someone might say "I repaired permissions and restarted and my problem went way" when in actuality it was probably the restarting that made the issue go away.

There is a belief that permissions spontaneously change on their disks and must be "repaired" periodically. If permissions actually changed spontaneously, people would scream bloody murder to Apple for even thinking of releasing such a buggy operating system. It could never be used in a multi-user environment, and MacOS X Server would be a laughing stock.

Sometimes software does install with incorrect permissions or changes permissions of existing files that the installer needs. Sometimes Apple's installer changes permissions from the original, so the Repair Permissions looks like it is "fixing" something when either permission would have worked. It's possible, but rare, that this actually causes problems.

Basically, if you experience a problem that looks like it is related to the program not being able to read or write to a file, then it could be a permissions issue. Random crashes are usually not due to incorrect permissions.

In summary, I never repair permissions unless it is an actual permissions problem, and I've seen some instances of it actually causing problems.

GratuitousApplesauce · Mar 25th, 2008, 05:29 PM

Ahh, the permissions repair debate. It reminds me of the P-RAM zapping debate prior to OS X. "Zap the P-RAM seemed to be the all-purpose answer to anything that seemed wonky in OS9 and earlier. I just sit on the sidelines and watch people who know much more than me fight it out with each other. May the best geek win.

From what I've read it seems like those who argue in favour of permissions repairing are saying that poorly written apps are what can screw with permissions, rather than them just spontaneously getting wonky. Could they be talking about MS and Adobe stuff or other apps that insist on a restart to install?

Anyway, since I don't know the answer to these questions, I'd like to know; does running a permissions repair actually endanger anything?

Benito, was asking "What are permissions." (Please anyone correct me if my wording isn't quite correct here) Permissions are little bits of data attached to files, folders and disks that control who owns and can access and interact with them and how they can do that, from reading only to full control of the file or disk. The user can set and change some permissions and "administrator" users can change most of them. If you don't know what they are, it's best to avoid messing with them if you don't have to.

Setting Permissions: Apple Support

Mac 101: Info from Apple geared towards Mac Newbies

MacDoc · Mar 25th, 2008, 05:58 PM

Except every maintenance tool does it as a default first step. For good reason.
It does no harm and once in a while helps as with all maintenance.

ONYX is the choice of many for weekly maintenance and yes it repairs permissions as well as the other scripts that your Mac would get around to if it was left on 24/7/365.

biovizier · Mar 25th, 2008, 08:13 PM

	Quote:
	does running a permissions repair actually endanger anything?

For the most part, "no" but theoretically, potentially, it could.

As MOAB showed, repairing permissions can be the final step in granting a local attacker access to your whole system (although even without repairing permissions, there are other routes an attacker could take). This probably isn't an issue any more in Leopard.

On the other hand, on a 10.5 system, if performed incorrectly, repairing permissions could endanger your security in another way. Specifically, if 10.5 was installed via the "upgrade" option, then repairing permissions while booted from a 10.4 or earlier disk (eg. the install disk that might have come with the computer) could cause a bunch of files to become setuid that shouldn't be (i.e. permissions set to 10.4 values). The most obvious symptom people have reported is that everything ends up running as "root" with the obvious security implications.

And "repair permissions" in 10.5 is so broken that it doesn't do its job - in this instance, it doesn't repair permissions.

But those issues aside, "repair permissions" is a tool that has a specific purpose and is useful within that context.

chas_m · Mar 25th, 2008, 08:52 PM

So if repairing permissions harms nothing and might possibly do some good -- and if it is by default Apple's first line of repair (as shown in both their support documents and by its placement in Disk Utility) -- and even third party companies do this before doing anything else ...

Why all the crazy-ass rants about it?

So what if YOU think it's a placebo? Since part of the mantra includes restarting, and the restarting is at least as likely to fix things as the permissions repair, there's no harm done and it makes people feel more in control of their own troubleshooting. If Apple said "sacrifice a chicken in a fork in the road under a full moon ... and restart your machine," I could understand if some folks gently reminded people that the killing a chicken part is just optional.

And the same for repairing permissions. But the militant "it's complete folly, and you're a fool for thinking otherwise!" (and worse!) tack is just plain odd to me.

I'm trying to find the evil downside of repairing permissions that would explain this vitriol against it ... and I'm not finding it.

Save the froth for things I might try to do that could actually HARM my system, like changing permissions willy-nilly. Just MHO.

SINC · Mar 25th, 2008, 09:01 PM

	Quote:			Originally Posted by chas_m
	Save the froth for things I might try to do that could actually HARM my system, like changing permissions willy-nilly. Just MHO.

While as many of you know, my Leopard experience has been less than perfect, after deleting iStat Pro, it is much better, but I can also say without doubt, that a simple "repair permissions" in Tiger took about a minute.

In Leopard, it still takes over eight minutes on my MBP 2.2 Ghz running Leopard.

That's progress?

chas_m · Mar 25th, 2008, 09:11 PM

SINC:

I'm very glad to hear you found the TRUE culprit behind your problems.

People do seem to have much longer permission-repair times in Leopard, including me (nothing like eight minutes, though -- maybe two at the most!). Of course, this could mean that we're not meant to be doing permissions repair any more often than "quite occasionally" now.

zlinger · Mar 25th, 2008, 09:53 PM

I had a 'repair permissions issue' occur recently after a system crash while I was deleting (or resizing? can't remember) a bootcamp partition. After a hard restart, I ran disk check and the errors appeared (maybe it is coincidently though), but I could not get it resolved.

Anyway, to make a long AppleCare phone call short, what I did was to boot from the Leopard CD and run disk utility from there. That fixed everything, and I have had no issues since.

Mar 25th, 2008, 05:58 PM	#24
MacDoc Honourable Citizen Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Planet Earth.....on slow boil Posts: 28,080	Except every maintenance tool does it as a default first step. For good reason. It does no harm and once in a while helps as with all maintenance. ONYX is the choice of many for weekly maintenance and yes it repairs permissions as well as the other scripts that your Mac would get around to if it was left on 24/7/365. __________________ Are you backed up??? if not why not? - Superduper is FREE!! Find out more here Support Green- buy Bullfrog Power http://www.bullfrogpower.com/

Mar 25th, 2008, 08:52 PM	#26
chas_m Honourable Citizen Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Victoria BC Posts: 11,323	So if repairing permissions harms nothing and might possibly do some good -- and if it is by default Apple's first line of repair (as shown in both their support documents and by its placement in Disk Utility) -- and even third party companies do this before doing anything else ... Why all the crazy-ass rants about it? So what if YOU think it's a placebo? Since part of the mantra includes restarting, and the restarting is at least as likely to fix things as the permissions repair, there's no harm done and it makes people feel more in control of their own troubleshooting. If Apple said "sacrifice a chicken in a fork in the road under a full moon ... and restart your machine," I could understand if some folks gently reminded people that the killing a chicken part is just optional. And the same for repairing permissions. But the militant "it's complete folly, and you're a fool for thinking otherwise!" (and worse!) tack is just plain odd to me. I'm trying to find the evil downside of repairing permissions that would explain this vitriol against it ... and I'm not finding it. Save the froth for things I might try to do that could actually HARM my system, like changing permissions willy-nilly. Just MHO. __________________ Cheers chas_m Evangelist, ACDSee Pro for Mac: Get the beta! Join the community! Help us build the next great Mac photo manager! Our life in Victoria BC • Music blog • My Podcast • Film blog Victoria Macintosh Users Group

Mar 25th, 2008, 09:11 PM	#28
chas_m Honourable Citizen Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Victoria BC Posts: 11,323	SINC: I'm very glad to hear you found the TRUE culprit behind your problems. People do seem to have much longer permission-repair times in Leopard, including me (nothing like eight minutes, though -- maybe two at the most!). Of course, this could mean that we're not meant to be doing permissions repair any more often than "quite occasionally" now. __________________ Cheers chas_m Evangelist, ACDSee Pro for Mac: Get the beta! Join the community! Help us build the next great Mac photo manager! Our life in Victoria BC • Music blog • My Podcast • Film blog Victoria Macintosh Users Group

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Mar 25th, 2008, 03:42 PM	#21
bagelmaster New Neighbour Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 2	sorry, dude. I replied to the wrong post. confusing with all of the layers of quoting going one. Cheers.

Mar 25th, 2008, 05:29 PM	#23
GratuitousApplesauce stewed 'n' puréed Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Southern Gulf Isles BC Posts: 4,416	Ahh, the permissions repair debate. It reminds me of the P-RAM zapping debate prior to OS X. "Zap the P-RAM seemed to be the all-purpose answer to anything that seemed wonky in OS9 and earlier. I just sit on the sidelines and watch people who know much more than me fight it out with each other. May the best geek win. From what I've read it seems like those who argue in favour of permissions repairing are saying that poorly written apps are what can screw with permissions, rather than them just spontaneously getting wonky. Could they be talking about MS and Adobe stuff or other apps that insist on a restart to install? Anyway, since I don't know the answer to these questions, I'd like to know; does running a permissions repair actually endanger anything? Benito, was asking "What are permissions." (Please anyone correct me if my wording isn't quite correct here) Permissions are little bits of data attached to files, folders and disks that control who owns and can access and interact with them and how they can do that, from reading only to full control of the file or disk. The user can set and change some permissions and "administrator" users can change most of them. If you don't know what they are, it's best to avoid messing with them if you don't have to. Setting Permissions: Apple Support Mac 101: Info from Apple geared towards Mac Newbies

Mar 25th, 2008, 09:53 PM	#29
zlinger Full Citizen Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 909	I had a 'repair permissions issue' occur recently after a system crash while I was deleting (or resizing? can't remember) a bootcamp partition. After a hard restart, I ran disk check and the errors appeared (maybe it is coincidently though), but I could not get it resolved. Anyway, to make a long AppleCare phone call short, what I did was to boot from the Leopard CD and run disk utility from there. That fixed everything, and I have had no issues since.