Reaction over no FW cable for iPod - Page 2

Macaholic · Feb 25th, 2005, 04:07 PM

[quote]Jobs knows that failing to keep price-competitive with PCs killed Apple the first time around (SCSI CD drives, for example; there's no reason for SCSI on something so slow as an optical disk drive); he not going to make that same mistake twice just for the sake of ideology.[quote]

He wasn't around to make that mistake the first time, but your point still stands. Again, as I mentioned in a thread about his birthday, yesterday, where would Apple be now had Jobs NOT returned??!

used to be jwoodget · Feb 25th, 2005, 07:00 PM

Firewire transfers are faster (in real life) than USB2 transfers so there is a benefit to buying a FW adaptor. The old iPod (G3/G4) firewire adaptor works with the new iPods. The option to use firewire is still there and you can also buy a PocketDock for US$25 that allows you to plug an iPod into a conventional firewire or USB cable.

This sort of whining gives Mac users a bad name (although I do think there is something to the idea of people not wanting Apple to give in to the crappier USB2 standard). Apple also dropped the ball on FW800. This connector makes a significant difference for external HDs but its essentially dead-in-the-water in terms of development.

gruegoo · Feb 25th, 2005, 07:02 PM

If you don't care about the extra battery time and want to save a few bucks on top of that WITH the firewire cable, just get a first gen ipod. Lot of places are trying to get rid of theirs for low prices. I think compusmart online is selling theirs for $229 with free shipping but you get another $20 off if you use a VISA card. So basically, $209 plus tax including shipping. only downside is the battery life, but personally its worth it for me if I don't have to pay $20 for a firewire cable, PLUS i'm saving $40 on top of that.

****edit****

I should note I'm talking about the ipod MINI above.

PosterBoy · Feb 25th, 2005, 07:30 PM

In my experience , the following is true:

iPod + Windows Computer that only has USB1.1 = no worky

Windows Machines seem to recognize that something is there, but won't work with it. My sister encountered this when she bought her 20 GB Click Wheel iPod. When she called Apple they told her that an iPod wont function when connected to a USB1.x port.

Whether that is limited to Windows or not, I don't know, but it's something to consider.

PosterBoy · Feb 25th, 2005, 07:36 PM

	Quote:
	Apple also dropped the ball on FW800. This connector makes a significant difference for external HDs but its essentially dead-in-the-water in terms of development.

Part of the problem is that FireWire costs something like 2.5x more to implement on a device than USB2 does, and presumably FireWire 800 costs even more. Sure, Apple implemented it, but what impact does that have on other companies, really? Lacie started shipping USB2/FW/FW800 drives pretty quick, and IOGear has started now, too. But you'd be hard pressed to find a Windows computer that comes with it.

Lots of Windows machines do come with FireWire now, though, since the Windows world has woken up to the "people want to work with video" reality.

farfisa · Feb 25th, 2005, 10:46 PM

Another confusing thing is that Sony calls firewire iLink, so some people may even have it, but don't know it because of terminology.
That's why I always say IEEE-1394. Even when it's totally inappropriate or irrelevant.

The genius of USB 2.0 is that it's backward compatible with older hardware. I think the problem with firewire 800 is that it's really 2 technologies. They could have called it something else completely -- like HDwire and people might have eaten it up. That's dropping the ball. USB 2.0 actually is the second generation of USB. Firewire 800 might as well be a different thing altogether.

IEEE-1394.

Chealion · Feb 25th, 2005, 11:42 PM

	Quote:			Originally Posted by PosterBoy
	iPod + Windows Computer that only has USB1.1 = no worky

I've got an iPod to work on USB 1.1 before (mind you I've only tried once and never want to again). iTunes recognized it (after 5 minutes) and I said to copy over about 30 songs. Stopped the transfer and decided to spend the 15 minutes finding a 4 to 6 pin Firewire port I had lieing around. USB 1.1 is too slow for it to be even conceivable to actually manage an iPod with. (Maybe an iPod shuffle if you like pain or are unable to upgrade.)

jicon · Feb 26th, 2005, 12:39 AM

I don't remember where I read this, but I thought years ago, Apple actually would charge other manufacturers a few dollars in royalty a port to use the six pin IEEE 1394 port on a machine. USB by comparison, would cost manufacturers $.25. I think the whole cost issue had many PC manufacturers stick to USB, and if history serves me right... had Sony introduce the iLink Firewire (four pin) port to get around royalty fees.

I wouldn't mind the lack of extras on the iPods, if the accessories didn't cost so much...

$29 for a firewire cable? Let's cut that down to a reasonable $10 - $15.

$49 for a dock???? FOR A DOCK????!!! There can't be more than $5 worth of material in the things... $29 for a couple pairs of socks-sorry, just read the Apple Store price ($39) and the cheap fabric case that came with my 3G costs $49??? Does the fabric come from some exotic endangered animal, found in the Brazilian rain forest?

gordguide · Feb 26th, 2005, 08:54 AM

Just to clarify:
IEEE 1394 is the standard.
"FireWire" is an Apple trademark for the standard when used with a powered 6-pin interface.
"iLink" is a Sony trademark for the standard when used with a non-powered 4-pin interface.

No PC comes with "Firewire". Some do come with "iLink" while others come with IEEE 1394.

Although the Firewire interface was developed by Apple, they gave it away to the IEEE so that it could be used anywhere. However, if you call it "Firewire" you must pay a royalty to Apple; if you call it iLink you must pay a royalty to Sony, and if you call it IEEE 1394 you can use either the 4 or 6 pin interface and pay no-one.

But few PCs use the 6-pin version because there is a general shortage of available power in many low-end and mid-end power supplies to run it. There are a couple of reasons for that.

Intel and to a lesser extent AMD processors are power-hungry devices and use a lot by themselves, while many low and mid-end PCs have inadequate power supplies to begin with; some can barely produce 200 watts and a few can't do that.

Early makers of add-on PCI cards for the PC avoided powered ports because the power issue would increase support costs and tend to create mysterious (power-related) problems for the average PC user. It's also cheaper to not include power in an add-on IEEE 1394 PCI card.

Vendors also know that many PC buyers, including some who consider themselves rather expert, are naive and don't realize that USB is a much slower interface if more than one device is connected to the bus; they are playing to the audience which, admittedly, have the wallets they need to open. Since USB is the best and cheapest way to get a powered bus on a PC (the USB powered port spec provides less power than Firewire, and thus is cheaper), that's what they sell them.

Since every iPod comes with the AC adapter you can still charge it quickly if necessary. Perhaps if 6-pin IEEE 1394 ports were common on PCs they could have kept Firewire and dumped the AC adapter, which would have been better price-wise (the charger is worth quite a bit by itself; much more than the FW cable). But it didn't happen that way. I don't see the point of swimming upstream over interfaces in the PC world; you won't win.

I don't agree that FW is "dead in the water"; it's used where appropriate but doesn't have to be used for everything. When you compete in the PC market you must be much more aggressive with pricing; people who can barely read own PCs but don't make more money because they own a computer.

FW 800 on the motherboard of Apple computers is fine and many will be using it long before your G5 needs to be replaced.

Apple can remain a niche player and ignore the PC world or it can suck it up and embrace the reality which will lead to better sales to former PC users of Macs as well as iPods. What they can't do is have it both ways. But, as Mac users, the second option means cheaper products from Apple; we win in the end even after we have to pony up $20 for a cable. Without iPod sales to PC users it would cost an easy $100 more to buy one today.

Macaholic · Feb 26th, 2005, 09:26 AM

Another great post by Gordguide.